Who Justifieth the Ungodly

[reneweddaybyday]

Again, just because you misinterpret Scripture to claim that faith = works, when Scripture plainly tells us faith ≠ works does not mean I am entangled in your error.

You condition salvation on your act of believing

Nope. Salvation is wholly by grace through faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

vs 8 by grace through faith

vs 9 faith ≠ works (see also Romans 4:1-5 for Scripture which tells us faith ≠ works).

You quote that

I believe that. I am not bound by your erroneous dogma as you are. You must believe that faith = works to support your erroneous dogma.

Let go of your error.

Faith ≠ works ... just as is stated in Scripture.

(see also Romans 4:1-5 for Scripture which tells us faith ≠ works).

I already know that

you say you "already know that" yet you claim faith = law keeping.
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[Magenta]

Romans 3:19-20 plus James 2:10
Romans 3:19-20 plus James 2:10

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The born again one believes in God

Thats True, that Faith is the fruit of the Spirit

... just more of your "born again in order to believe that through which a person is born again" dogma ... under your erroneous dogma how many times must a person be born again before they are really, truly, really, really, really, scout's honor born again???

not his natural human faith !

... more of your erroneous dogma because you do not believe what is written in Scripture

There is only one faith (Eph 4:5) and people believe what they believe, whether truth or error, through that one faith ... just as God gave intellect to man through which a person thinks.

You do not believe it is strange that all mankind has the capacity to think because God gave mankind an intellect.

Yet you do believe it is strange that there is only one faith ... even though God specifically tells us in His Word that there is only one faith.

The rest of your comment is garbage

... more of your "just being honest" ... you feel better now???

God gives His Elect out of mankind

There is only One "Elect out of mankind" and that is the Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God.

Without Him there is no "elect".

Ephesians 1:13 In whom [the Lord Jesus Christ] ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

This refers to the regenerated

... just more of your "born again in order to believe that through which a person is born again" dogma ... under your erroneous dogma how many times must a person be born again before they are really, truly, really, really, really, scout's honor born again???

After you heard, you believed.

after they heard spiritually

... just more of your manipulation of the text.

The verse specifically states that the sealing of the Holy Spirit of promise (which is to be born again) occurred after hearing and after believing ... not before as your erroneous dogma insists.

You are again promoting more of your "born again in order to believe that through which a person is born again" dogma ... under your erroneous dogma how many times must a person be born again before they are really, truly, really, really, really, scout's honor born again???

The issue is "in WHOM do you have faith".

Yep, does one have faith in the Jesus Christ revealed in the scripture who died to save exclusively a Chosen People

the Lord Jesus Christ died for all descendants of Adam ... the world ... the whole world.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


Under your erroneous dogma you have to manipulate the plain words of Scripture to align with your error. That is improper interpretation of Scripture. You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where your dogma is in error you are to let go of the error.
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[reneweddaybyday]

Scripture clearly states that faith ≠ works:

Romans 4:

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

I actually know what scripture says

Since you "actually know what scripture says", the next step is for you to believe what Scripture says.

Scripture says faith ≠ works. Period.
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[reneweddaybyday]

reneweddaybyday – Post 2266

I'm not going to respond to your Post #2229 because you botched your quote from whatever post of mine you were responding to.​

brightfame52 – Post #2301

I dont blame you because it shows how you in contradiction, you condition salvation on mans act of faith, thats works !​

reneweddaybyday – Post 2340

nope ... it shows you need to learn how to submit posts so that it is clear as to who said what.​

its only you and i in this exchange

so? that should make it easier for you to submit your posts correctly.

If others put up with your manipulative submission of posts and respond even though you submit a post in which it appears they said something you submitted, that is their prerogative ... just as it is my prerogative to tell you that you have botched your submission of a post ...

you just trying to avoid your contradictions.

... you submitting a post wherein you've got me saying what you said and then me responding with what I said is not my "contradiction" ... that is you manipulating what has been submitted. I'm not surprised that you manipulate here because you do the same with Scripture.
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[reneweddaybyday]

reneweddaybyday – Post 2201

Ephesians 1:13 In whom [the Lord Jesus Christ] ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise​

​

After you heard, you believed.​

​

After you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise (regenerated / born again)​

brightfame52 – Post #2231

Eph 1:13 is describing the regenerated person being brought to faith !​

reneweddaybyday – Post 2268

Nope. The verse clearly states that after a person hears, they believe and after a person believes, they are sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise (regenerated).​

​

You are suggesting the verse reads that a person is sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (regenerated) before they hear/believe and, clearly, that is not how the verse is written.​

​

Your manipulation of Scripture fails.​

brightfame52 – Post #2302

one must be made alive spiritually to hear​

reneweddaybyday – Post 2341

just more of your "one must be born again in order to believe that through which a person is born again" dogma​

​

You're saying that Ephesians 1:13 applies to the believer after he/she is born again????​

​

Ephesians 1:13 In whom [the Lord Jesus Christ] ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise​

​

After you heard, you believed.​

​

After you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise (regenerated / born again)​

There is no spiritual hearing without being born of God.

You are trying to align Scripture to your erroneous dogma ... that is not proper interpretation of Scripture.

The verse clearly states that one is sealed with that holy Spirit of promise (which means to be born again) after he/she believes.

You have the verse backwards because you hold to your dogma rather than hold to Scripture. You are to hold to Scripture and where your dogma does not line up, let go of your error.

that is not how the verse is written. You again manipulate the text in order to force Scripture to align with your erroneous dogma. tsk, tsk ... such poor workmanship. Your manipulation again fails.

to be "regenerated, or born of God" is to be sealed with the holy Spirit of promise.

Its simple, Eph 1:13 is about the regenerate elect

The verse specifically states that the sealing of the Holy Spirit of promise (which is to be born again) occurred after believing ... not before as your erroneous dogma insists.

You are again promoting more of your "born again in order to believe that through which a person is born again" dogma ... under your erroneous dogma how many times must a person be born again before they are really, truly, really, really, really, scout's honor born again???
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[reneweddaybyday]

reneweddaybyday – Post 2342

... just more of your "born again in order to believe that through which a person is born again" dogma ...​

​

John 1:​

​

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.​

​

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:​

​

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.​

​

verse 12 explains what occurs when a person receives [Greek lambanō – to lay hold by aggressively(actively) accepting what is available] the Lord Jesus Christ as opposed to those who reject Him as those shown in vs 11.​

​

Those who lay hold by actively accepting the Lord Jesus Christ are granted the privilege, honor, right to become sons of God.​

​

even to them that believe on his name ... those who receive Him (lambanō – to lay hold by aggressively(actively) accepting) are the ones who believe on His name.​

​

verse 13 explains that those who receive Him ... those who believe on His name are begotten of God ... not in some distant time in the past to which you continuously infer ... but at the time they received [Greek lambanō – to lay hold by aggressively (actively) accepting what is available] the Lord Jesus Christ and believed on his name (vs 12).​

​

Again, under your erroneous dogma how many times must a person be born again before they are really, truly, really, really, really, scout's honor born again???​

Vs 13 gives the foundation of why some during the ministry of Christ did receive Him and believed on His name ... they did because they had been born of God.

... just more of your "born again in order to believe that through which a person is born again" dogma ...

Those who lay hold by actively accepting the Lord Jesus Christ are granted the privilege, honor, right to become sons of God.

Yes, but they were born again previously in order to believe on Him, to receive Him. Thats what Vs 13 tells us !

If, as you claim "they were born again previously", there would be no need to be granted the privilege, honor, right to become the sons of God because, according to you, they already are born of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name

Quit trying to manipulate Scripture to align to your erroneous dogma. Align your dogma with Scripture and where your dogma is in error, get rid of your error.

verse 13 explains that those who receive Him ... those who believe on His name are begotten of God ... not in some distant time in the past to which you continuously infer ... but at the time they received [Greek lambanō – to lay hold by aggressively (actively) accepting what is available] the Lord Jesus Christ and believed on his name (vs 12).

they had been begotten of God, born of God is in the aorist past and passive voice

nope ... aorist indicative

A person is born again at the time he/she believes.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
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[reneweddaybyday]

Please refresh your memory because you appear to have forgotten what you have submitted in the discussion:

See how you dishonestly twist things ?

If anyone "dishonestly twist things", it would be you. You "dishonestly twist" Scripture to align with your erroneous dogma ... you "dishonestly" submit posts in which you show me as having stated something submitted by you and then include my reply so that it appears I made both statements. I'm not surprised, though, because it's just you feeding your old, carnal nature rather than rendering it crucified.


Please, again, refresh your memory:

brightfame52 – Post 2189

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.​

reneweddaybyday – Post #2205

I have no problem with Romans 12:3 ... Since it is you who does not believe Romans 12:3, then it is you who has the problem with God.​

brightfame52 – Post #2234

You trying to make it apply to all mankind, when its referring only to the saints, particularly at the time of writing, the saints at rome Rom 1:7-87 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.​

reneweddaybyday – Post #2271

... so now you want me to believe that Romans 1:18-32 refers only to believers????​

brightfame52 – Post #2305

I dont know where you got that from​

reneweddaybyday – Post #2343

Now you claim you "don't know where [ I ] got that from"??? I "got that" from you ...​

​

You claimed in your Post #2234 that Romans refers "only to the saints, particularly at the time of writing, the saints at Rom 1:7-8".​

​

Since, according to you, Rom 12:3 applies "only to the saints, particularly at the time of writing, the saints at Rom 1:7-8", then Rom 1:18-32 applies "only to the saints, particularly at the time of writing, the saints at Rom 1:7-8".​

Since, according to you, Rom 12:3 applies "only to the saints, particularly at the time of writing, the saints at Rom 1:7-8", then Rom 1:18-32 applies "only to the saints, particularly at the time of writing, the saints at Rom 1:7-8".

Rom 1:18-32 didnt apply to the saints, yet it was written to the saints.How can you confuse such ? The whole Letter was written to the Saints, yet everything doesnt have to apply to them.

now you're starting to pick up what I laid down.

The only reason you are so insistent that there is more than one faith (even though Scripture tells us there is only one faith – Eph 4:5) and that no one has faith until he/she is regenerated (in order that he/she can believe the gospel by which he/she is regenerated – no Scripture to support that notion) is because you hold to your erroneous dogma rather than holding to the truth of Scripture.

Again, you are to align your dogma to Scripture and where your dogma is in error, let go of the error.

READ YOUR BIBLE!!!

... so now you want me to believe that Romans 1:18-32 refers only to believers????

that passage applies strictly to them that will never become believers, but are now and will forever remain under the wrath of God.

not true ... if, at any time, the person who is caught in the downward spiral shown in Rom 1:18-32 turns to the Lord, God, in His great mercy, grace, lovingkindness, will forgive.

Acts 3:26

26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Please note what Peter stated in Acts 3:19:

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord

The instruction to the people present that day was that they were to repent. Then, once they repent, and are born again, God works inside the believer to turn us away from iniquity.

Once we are born again, we are to continue to live our lives according to God's instruction ... according to the new man, the new creation ... God works within us to conform us to the image of His Son (Rom 8:29).

The person who claims to be a born again believer, yet continues to live his/her life according to the carnal flesh is either (1) not born again, or (2) born again but living according to the flesh (the "old man") which we are instructed to crucify according to Romans 6.


Titus 2:

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world
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[reneweddaybyday]

reneweddaybyday – Post 2206:

God justifies those who believe on Him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead for we are justified by faith. Those who reject God will find themselves rejected come judgment day.​

brightfame52 – Post 2235

God Justifieth the ungodly, so that means He Justified them before Faith​

reneweddaybyday – Post 2272

no it doesn't. Once a person is justified, they are no longer "ungodly".​

​

So if a person is justified before he/she believes, he/she is not "ungodly".​

​

Again, your erroneous dogma fails.​

God justifieth the ungodly, therefore they are justified before faith, while being ungodly.

If a person is justified, he/she is no longer "ungodly".

Thats your confusion

I'm not confused ... your claim does not line up with Scripture because you are trying to align Scripture to your erroneous dogma.

You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where your dogma does not align, you are to rid yourself of the error.

A person is ungodly by nature, before they are born again. And if they are elect, they are Justified while unregenerate.

Your so-called "elect" are all part of the pool of humanity.

Prior to being born again, all descendants of Adam are ungodly.

Once a person is born again, he/she is a member of the body of Christ ... Who is the Elect. Once a person is born again, he/she is no longer ungodly.

brightfame53, in your Post #910, you stated the following:

And its no where in scripture where the believer in Christ is stated to be the ungodly

Now you are adamant that once a person is born again, he/she is still considered "ungodly".

Not only does your erroneous dogma not align with Scripture, but your erroneous dogma does not align with itself!!!

Right, so the elect were Justified while ungodly, while an unbeliever

unbelievers are not justified. unbelievers are ungodly.

2 Pet 2:9

The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished

2 Peter 2:9 does not refer to the ungodly as you erroneously claim.

Read the verse again:

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished




brightfame52 – Post 2308

its a present tense participle, Hes Justifying the ungodly ! So if Justifying is in the present tense, so are the ungodly he is Justifying.​

reneweddaybyday – Post #2344

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.​

​

The word believeth is also present tense.​

​

The ungodly person believes and God imputes righteousness to him/her right then, right when the person believes (present tense) ... God justifies that person, right then (present tense) ... at that point, they are no longer "ungodly".​

​

Prior to being justified, all born again ones were ungodly (even your so-called "elect"). Once a person is born again, the Holy Spirit resides within. The born again one is no longer "ungodly".​

Thats fine for believing to be in the present tense, yet the believing is giving credence to what occurred in the past, which was before they began to believe, or even before they were born for that matter.

Scripture teaches when a person is saved ... born again ... sealed with the holy Spirit of promise ... regenerated ... doesn't matter what you want to call it ... the person is born again when Scripture tells us:

Ephesians 1:13 In whom [the Lord Jesus Christ] ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

After you heard, you believed.

After you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise (regenerated / born again)


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!

And no an ungodly person cannot believe, they are dead spiritually, dead to God. God because of Christs blood imputes righteousness to all for whom Christ died, even before they are born sinners.

By you stating as you do, that God justifies a person when they believe is works !

Scripture clearly states that faith ≠ works:

Romans 4:

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.[/quote]I actually know what scripture says


Since you "actually know what scripture says", the next step is to believe what Scripture says.

Scripture says faith ≠ works. Period.

Again, if a person is "reconciled" to God, there is no more enmity.

Those who are justified are no longer "ungodly".

Those who are reconciled are no longer "enemies".

Not true.

Yes, true, the one who is reconciled to God is no longer an enemy.


Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

enemies translated from Greek echthros – ("enemy"), implies irreconcilable hostility,

reconciled translated from Greek katallássō – decisively change, as when two parties reconcile when coming ("changing") to the same position.


The one who is justified by faith (Rom 5:1) is no longer an enemy because he/she is now reconciled. Both parties are now reconciled.

God (the Party of the first part) established His eternal purpose in eternity past ... and He reconciled Himself to mankind through the death of His Son.

The believer (the party of the second part) is reconciled at the time he/she is justified. At that point, both parties (God and the believer) came to the same position (see definition of reconciled translated from Greek katallássō).


Under your erroneous dogma, a person is simultaneously irreconcilable and reconciled
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[reneweddaybyday]

brightfame52 – Post 2235

God Justifieth the ungodly, so that means He Justified them before Faith

Yes that's right

brightfame52 ... in your Post 2387, you replied to yourself.
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[brightfame52]

reneweddaybyday – Post 2331

You provide no post submitted by me which proves up your accusation and you will not find any post submitted by me which corroborates your claim.​

​

So again, those words came directly from your keyboard ... you are the only one who has made that blasphemous statement in this thread.​

brightfame52 – Post 2074

Christs death was worthless.​

smh

Its you that teach that sinners Christ died for shall still die in their sins, therefore that equates to Christs death being worthless, from that your viewpoint,

I preach that all the sinners Christ died for, the elect, have their sins forgiven because of His death Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Remission of sins come through the shedding of His Blood or Death, making His Death very Valuable !

 

[reneweddaybyday]

reneweddaybyday – Post 2207

righteousness is imputed when a person believes​

brightfame52 – Post 2236

righteousness is received[into the conscience] when one believes, it existed before God prior to their believing​

reneweddaybyday – Post 2273

113 pages into this thread and you have provided no support for your erroneous dogma that " righteousness is received[into the conscience] when one believes, it existed before God prior to their believing "​

Heb 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

The word "faith" is translated from the Greek word pistis which means conviction of the truth of anything. If someone lies to us and yet we believe that the lie is truth, we place our faith in something that is untrue, which can result in disaster for us.

However, in the context of Hebrews 11, it is clear that the men and women spoken of placed their faith in the truth spoken to them concerning God and/or His Word. As a result, they obtained a good report through faith even though they received not the promise (Heb 11:39).


The word "substance" is translated from the Greek word hypostasis which is comprised of the Greek word /hypó, "under" and /hístēmi, "to stand" –standing under a guaranteed agreement ("title-deed"); (figuratively) "title" to a promise or property, i.e. a legitimate claim (because it literally is, "under a legal-standing") – entitling someone to what is guaranteed under the particular agreement.

God made promises which were/are believed. When anyone takes hold of the promises of God, they do so through faith. And it is God Who makes good the promise. You seem to be under some misguided understanding that the person who believes makes good the promise. That is incorrect. God makes good the promise ... not the person ... not the faith with which the person believes the promise.


The words "of things hoped for" are translated from the Greek word elpizō which means to actively wait for God's fulfillment of His promise.


The word "evidence" is translated from the Greek word elegchos which means that by which invisible things are proved.


According to Heb 11:1, faith is the foundation for those things we yet hope for. When God makes a promise and we lay hold of that promise through faith, we hope for that which God promises by actively waiting for God to fulfill His promise.

You seem to believe that a person cannot have faith in something that is untrue. Well, take a look at Eve ... she believed the lie of satan.

Look at what is going on in our world today. Folks believe lies all the time. Unbelievers have faith ... they believe the lies of the devil, which results in calamity for them.

Were you get this foolishness ? God Justifys mankind ?

Intentionally obtuse.




reneweddaybyday – Post 2345

justification by faith is what God says it is ... not what your erroneous dogma claims.​

​

God reveals when He justifies mankind ... no need for any embellishment by you:​

​

Romans 4:​

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20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;​

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21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.​

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22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.​

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23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;​

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24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;​

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25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.​

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5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ​

​

​

vs 24 - righteousness is imputed when a person believes on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead ... not before.​

​

vs 1 - therefore being justified by faith ... the text does not read "therefore being justified before faith".​

Righteousness has been imputed when one believes.

nope ... it [righteousness] shall be imputed ...

Romans 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead

The words "it shall be" are in the present tense, which means righteousness is imputed at the time the person believes ... not in some distant past your erroneous dogma insists.

Your attempt to align Scripture to your erroneous dogma has failed again.

You are to align your erroneous dogma to Scripture and where there is error, get rid of the error.

justification by faith is what God says it is ... not what your erroneous dogma claims.

Justification by Faith is when God given Faith from the New Birth points the blood washed sinner to its object of Justification the Lord Jesus Christ.

yawn ... just more of your "born again in order to believe that through which a person is born again" dogma ... under your erroneous dogma how many times must a person be born again before they are really, truly, really, really, really, scout's honor born again???
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[reneweddaybyday]

renewed

yet another botched post from you, brightfame52 ... you think anyone is going to trust your rendering of Scripture when you can't even properly submit a post in an online forum???

Quit acting like such a buffoon ... Learn how to properly submit posts in the Christian Chat forum. There's a "User2User Tech Support" forum where you can chat with other users who are much more adept at submitting posts than you are. Go there and find out what you need to do in order to submit a post without mangling the discussion.

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[reneweddaybyday]

Your feeble attempts to make faith a "doing of the Law" are nothing but the musings of your erroneous dogma.

Faith from the natural man is of the law

more of your fallacies. "Faith from the natural man" is just another term for your "human faith" ... all made up by you in order to support your erroneous dogma.

Scripture tells us there is one faith:

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism

I will hold to Scripture.

Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

When you understand that one of the weightier matters of the law was that the point of the law was to bring mankind to the Lord Jesus Christ, you just might be able to comprehend how and why judgment and mercy are also considered weightier matters of the law.

Until then, you will continue on with your faith = law fallacy, even though Scripture is clear that faith ≠ law.


Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
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[reneweddaybyday]

There is no Gospel of Gods Grace without preaching the Limited effectual atonement.

The gospel is what God's Word says it is ... the gospel is not some cutesy construct of man [TULIP] whereby what God's Word tells us is the gospel is tossed aside in order to hold on to erroneous dogma.

You scoff at the doctrine of limited atonement and call it by the name of a man, yet its the Gospel you are scoffing at friend.

You scoff at God's Word. Your attempts to align Scripture to your erroneous dogma fail miserably.

You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where there is error, let go of the error. You hold to the error and toss Scripture to the wayside ... way to go, brightfame52.

Again, all those scriptures refer to Gods elect !

Like I said, brightfame52, you have no problem manipulating Scripture because you do not believe Scripture. You add a little here, remove a little there ... and the result is unscriptural ... merely the musings of vain imagining

in 1 Tim 2:4, you have to change "all man" to "all elect"

1 Timothy 2:4 Who [God] will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


in John 1:29, John 3:16-17, 1 John 2:2, you have to change "the world" and "the whole world" to "the world of the elect"

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


And just an fyi, brightfame52, the word "elect" [Greek eklektos] does not appear in any of those verses which you insist pertain only to God's "elect". In fact, the Greek word eklektos does not appear in the gospel of John or in the epistle of 1 John at all, it appears once in 1 Timothy ... but it does not appear in 1 Tim 2:4.
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Yet all men naturally arent the seed of Abraham.

The Lord Jesus Christ is not descended from Abraham.

Joseph and Mary were lineal descendants of Abraham.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the only begotten of the Father.

The point of Hebrews 2:16 is not the lineal genealogy of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus Christ is not a lineal descendant of any man or woman.

Again, the Lord Jesus Christ is the only begotten of the Father.

The point of Hebrews 2:16 is that the Lord Jesus Christ did not take on Himself the nature of angels because the Lord Jesus Christ did not come to redeem angels. The Lord Jesus Christ came to redeem mankind.

In Hebrews 2, Scripture mentions the seed of Abraham because the Hebrews are descended from Abraham. The word "Hebrew" was first ascribed to Abraham. The book of Hebrews was written to the Hebrew believers ... those who were acquainted with the oracles of God. Gentile believers were (for the most part) ignorant of the Old Covenant.

In Philippians 2, we are told that the Lord Jesus Christ was made in the likeness of men ... that is the same truth as Heb 2:16 ... Philippians just refers to the more general pool of humanity.

And get this straight, brightfame52 ... because you have a tendency to believe that Scripture is about the "elect".

That is not the point of Scripture. The whole point of Scripture ... the One Subject from beginning to end is the Elect ... the Lord Jesus Christ, Who is King of kings and Lord of lords.

When you take your focus off of the Elect and try to manufacture a way to replace the Elect with the "elect", you wind up with nothing but problems when it comes to truly comprehending what it is that God wants you to understand.

Christ took on flesh and blood

Yes, and his flesh / blood was not descended from men. The Lord Jesus Christ was the only begotten of the Father. His Father is God

Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

His flesh was "like" the flesh of all the rest of mankind ... He bled ... He was bruised (Is 53:5) ... He wept (John 11:35) ... He was tempted, yet without sin (Heb 4:15) ... He hungered (Matt 21:8, Luke 4:2).

But His blood was perfect ... His blood was not tainted as all the rest of mankind ... all descendants of Adam.

That is why His blood is able to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

My blood shed for myself, you, or anyone else ... your blood shed ... would never cleanse.

Only the blood of Christ can cleanse from all iniquity.
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All the rest of mankind ... all descendants of Adam ... all come from one blood:Acts 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation

Thats correct, and He will save the seed of Abraham out of all nations of men Rev 5:9

You know what is not mentioned in Rev 5:9? "Spiritual seed of Abraham" ... "Spiritual seed of Israel".

What we do see is every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation

Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation

Ex 19:6

And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

You know what is not mentioned in Ex 19:6? "every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation"

What we do see is the children of Israel (Ex 19:1) ... the house of Jacob ... the children of Israel (Ex 19:3) ... the children of Israel (Ex 19:6)

Replacement theology ... another erroneous dogma which causes nothing but trouble for those who hold to its tenets.

The point of Heb 2:14 is that the Lord Jesus Christ took upon Himself only a part of flesh and blood. The part the Lord Jesus Christ took upon Himself was flesh (John 1:14).

Thats false and heresy. He took on flesh and blood, humanity. Scripture plainly says He took on the same as His elect brother and sisters Heb 2:14

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

I have already explained to you the difference between the words "partakers" and "took part".

You focus on partakers and flesh and blood and the same and you ignore the took part.

Took part is not the same as partaker.

A partaker shares fully. All descendants of Adam are partakers of Adam. The Lord Jesus Christ is not descended from Adam. The Lord Jesus Christ is not a partaker.

The Lord Jesus Christ only took part.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh

Here you go with the race card.

Intentionally obtuse post submitted by brightfame52 aka accuser of the brethren.

Recipients
The letter was addressed primarily to Jewish converts who were familiar with the OT and who were being tempted to revert to Judaism or to Judaize the gospel (cf. Gal 2:14). Some have suggested that these professing Jewish Christians were thinking of merging with a Jewish sect, such as the one at Qumran near the Dead Sea. It has also been suggested that the recipients were from the "large number of priests who became obedient to the faith" (Acs 6:7).
https://www.biblestudytools.com/hebrews/
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I believe faith is found in the new created born again man

I understand that's what you believe. However, when you believe that "faith is found in the new created born again man", what you are saying is that the man must be born again in order to believe Scripture wherein he/she is born again.

Under your erroneous dogma how many times must a person be born again before they are really, truly, really, really, really, scout's honor born again???

Here this

Hear this:

Scripture clearly states that faith ≠ works:

Romans 4:

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

that verse doesnt say believing isnt a work

NIV:

However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.


ESV:

And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness


NKJV:

But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness


ISV:

However, to someone who does not work, but simply believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness
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Jesus said nothing about "human faith" because there is no such thing as "human faith".

Thats false, Jesus was speaking here Matt 23:23

Because you misinterpret what the Lord Jesus Christ told the scribes and pharisees in Matt 23:23, you have the Lord Jesus Christ contradicting what is written in Romans 4:5.

There is no contradiction in Scripture.

The contradiction is between your erroneous dogma and Scripture. You are not to try to force Scripture to align with your erroneous dogma. You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where your dogma is in error, get rid of the error.
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Your attempt to try to force Scripture to align with your erroneous dogma has again failed.

So using the word world covers the collection of Gods elect eklektos from all nations.

I understand your dilemma in having to hold to your limited atonement fallacy.

You are not to try to force Scripture to align with your erroneous dogma. You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where your dogma is in error, get rid of the error.

The whole world is the whole world ... you are free to suppress the truth in unrighteousness as you add add a little here ... remove a little there. At that point, you no longer have Scripture.

From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

5. the inhabitants of the world: θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καί ἀγγέλοις καί ἀνθρώποις, 1 Corinthians 4:9 (Winers Grammar, 127 (121)); particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race (first so in Sap. (e. g. Wisdom 10:1)): Matthew 13:38; Matthew 18:7; Mark 14:9; John 1:10, 29(John 1:36 L in brackets); John 3:16f; 6:33,51; 8:26; 12:47; 13:1; 14:31; 16:28; 17:6,21,23; Romans 3:6, 19; 1 Corinthians 1:27f (cf. Winer's Grammar, 189 (178)); 1 Corinthians 4:13; 5:10; 14:10; 2 Corinthians 5:19; James 2:5 (cf. Winer's Grammar, as above); 1 John 2:2 ( cf. Winer's Grammar, 577 (536));​

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
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