I seek to simplify. What's interesting is you keep accusing me of assuming you believe one way and yet you continue to say I singularly focused on works only, when in
each and every relevant post on the subject I've linked it with
faith. That's called psychological projection. But I digress...
Your circular arguing is making my head spin honestly. So if we strip everything down here's what I've read from our exchange so far:
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With "A" representing "true faith" and "B" representing "acting in obedience" (not just any "works", but "specifically obeying God")...
Me - "I've proven that once all the math is done, A = B. Here's the simplified equation everyone: A = B! So focus on B."
You - "No. A = A, but B is a
result of A"
Me - "The
result then is A = B and B = A. There's no A without B and no B without A."
You - "No. Stop assuming I believe A and B are separate from each other. A is the root cause of B. You better stop it!"
Me - "
Stop what?? Do you agree or disagree that A and B are equal as a result?"
You - "You're so fascinated with B! I'm going to ask you again; stop assuming I'm saying A and B are separate from each other! A = A, but the reason B doesn't exist is because A is not there. If A existed then B would exist. B proceeds
from A. A will always
result in B. If there's no A, then there's no B. You have it backwards. B is the
RESULT OF A. The problem isn't that B doesn't exist, it's that A doesn't exist. Let me know if I need to explained myself again."
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It's circular arguing.
If I asked, "can a person have true faith in God without acting in obedience to him" I think from all you've written I can safely
assume that your answer would be an emphatic "no".
But can a person act in obedience to God without truly trusting or having faith in him? Notice what I asked. Can a person act in perfect obedience to God and yet somehow
not trust him completely or not have faith in him at all?
God tells Abraham to leave his home and travel to another land where He will make him a great company of nations from his seed...Abraham leaves in perfect obedience...
could Abraham have possibly acted in perfect obedience but completely doubted God would keep his promise if the act of obedience is the "fruit" of trust & faith like you say? I think you would also answer "no, it's impossible", again based on what you've written to me. And I would agree with you. So I don't understand the reason for your disagreement.
Paul writes to the Jews
still practicing animal sacrifice after Christ's sacrifice, telling them that they are not showing faith. Were they acting in perfect obedience to God by offering animal sacrifice? Well
before Christ the answer would've been "yes"...but
after Christ, it's a resounding "NO". Why? Well a shepherd steers his sheep in the direction they should go. Before Christ, the direction was one way, then after Christ the direction changed. A sheep who refuses to change directions is BOTH distrusting AND disobedient to the shepherd.
Christ said, "we shall know them by the fruits they bear. A good tree can't bear bad fruit and a bad tree can't bear good fruit." They can't. It's impossible. Christ also said that a tree that
doesn't bear fruit is a useless tree that will be
cut down (
Matthew 7:9). He also said that a branch
in him that
doesn't bear fruit will be
removed,
implying that a branch can ACTUALLY be truly connected to him but not do the work. Christ insinuates that it's indeed possible (
John 15:2). This notion that a branch that's not bearing good fruit was
never truly connected by faith to the vine - as some others have claimed many times -
completely goes against Christ's words in John 15:2.
"He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful."
You're arguing with me constantly about which comes first: the fruit or connection to the vine. Meanwhile I'm telling folks here, that because the branches are connected to the vine as one,
focus on bearing fruit as that's our job.