Well I'm glad you said you are a "work in progress." That we all are (even Skinski). But what I hope you are not doing, is excusing your sins for swearing and smoking (Army brat, etc.) Like I said, the one thing that helped me to change was thinking should I die tomorrow, would I face the Lord boldly or ashamed. How awful it would be to see God face-to-face ashamed because we loved our many sins more than Him on earth. You won't go on willfully living in sin for too much longer if you dwell on this prospect.
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C
Believe me my friend I make no excuse for my sins, rather I reckognise I'm a sinner, I'm just saved by grace, I'm not perfect, only Jesus is, and I love Him with my entire heart, I want nothing in this world but to serve Him, it crushes me to think I may hurt Him, my heart is not pure, I am not blameless, I judge, I have vanity and pride, but I know that by admitting these flaws and laying them down at the feet of the cross Jesus is just and forgives me, that does not mean I continue sinning, I know I will finish this race, I will fight the good fight, and with Christ all things are possible, I did not become perfect when I got saved, Jesus will perfect all things in His timing
It is not pride, haughtiness, thinking one is better, looking down, or self justification to WARN someone of the judgment when they openly confess that they are still in rebellion to God and make the excuse of "nobodies perfect, I am still a work in progress." Especially when they isolate and twist the scripture to support their deception.
I am not playing games here.
Paul wrote this...
2Co 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
2Co 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
Do you fear God? The scripture is not a joke and ought not be taken lightly.
Instead of addressing my very specific questions you blow them off and then accuse me of being a prideful and self-righteous. What about what the Scriptures specifically teach? Do they mean nothing to you?
The passages I quote are very plain and simple to understand. Jesus taught a message of righteousness operating from a pure heart. Jesus taught that if we yielded to Him then we would be made clean and in doing so our outward fruit would be manifest righteousness. Jesus did not teach that those who follow Him are "works in progress" who are still sinning every day. Sure we grow and learn, but we grow and learn in holiness, not become "less filthy."
You are defending this lie...
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
It is Satan who wants you to believe that you can keep on sinning and not lose your soul.
God is going to judge us all by our conduct. Look at what Paul wrote here...
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Did your pastor ever quote that? Is Paul lying there?
If we can sin and not surely die then God is mocked. All the warnings in the Bible are meaningless. The way to eternal life is not strait and narrow. We don't have to strive to enter in and be a doer of the word. We don't really have to deny ourselves, pick up our cross and actually do what Jesus commanded.
NO! God will not be mocked. The Bible means exactly what it says and we will be judged according to our deeds. There is no such thing as this positional salvation whilst one remains a slave to the lusts of their flesh.
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
I am not playing games here.
Paul wrote this...
2Co 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
2Co 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
Do you fear God? The scripture is not a joke and ought not be taken lightly.
Instead of addressing my very specific questions you blow them off and then accuse me of being a prideful and self-righteous. What about what the Scriptures specifically teach? Do they mean nothing to you?
The passages I quote are very plain and simple to understand. Jesus taught a message of righteousness operating from a pure heart. Jesus taught that if we yielded to Him then we would be made clean and in doing so our outward fruit would be manifest righteousness. Jesus did not teach that those who follow Him are "works in progress" who are still sinning every day. Sure we grow and learn, but we grow and learn in holiness, not become "less filthy."
You are defending this lie...
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
It is Satan who wants you to believe that you can keep on sinning and not lose your soul.
God is going to judge us all by our conduct. Look at what Paul wrote here...
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Did your pastor ever quote that? Is Paul lying there?
If we can sin and not surely die then God is mocked. All the warnings in the Bible are meaningless. The way to eternal life is not strait and narrow. We don't have to strive to enter in and be a doer of the word. We don't really have to deny ourselves, pick up our cross and actually do what Jesus commanded.
NO! God will not be mocked. The Bible means exactly what it says and we will be judged according to our deeds. There is no such thing as this positional salvation whilst one remains a slave to the lusts of their flesh.
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
C
It's funny how you neglect to answer my question, yet still have the gall to point your finger. I can see from many of your posts you are very judgemental, and there is pride in your words. Yet you refuse to admit any wrong doing in yourself
more sad than funny actually, it's people like you that turn baby Christians away from Christ, all judgemental and no compassion
more sad than funny actually, it's people like you that turn baby Christians away from Christ, all judgemental and no compassion
The grain of some of this discussion is either one condones sin or one does not. Obviously you do not condone sin, and I know I sure do not either, so what's the beef with others? They have no ground upon which to stand. Judging for ourselves what is right is a command of Jesus, Himself, but never to judge others to condemnation for that too is a command from our Master saying with the judgment we mete out we will be judged. Nothing by entering the body defiles the body, it is what proceeds from the heart that may defile. If one possesses goodess and riches of beauty, that will proceed from the heart, but if one is full of judgment, envy, murder, blasphemy etc. these will defile a person. Let us (I must learn to always do this) pray for those less tolerant in the Body of Yeshua, Jesus; this is the will of our Maker, amen.
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C
We are ALL infected and impure with sin
1 john 1:8
If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves, and not living in the truth
Isaiah 64:5-8
You gladly welcome those who do good, who follow godly ways, but you have been angry with us for we are not godly, we are constant sinners, how can people like us be saved? We are all infected and impure with sin, when we display our righteousness, they are nothing but filthy rags, like autumn leaves, we wither and fall, and our sins sweep us away like the wind, yet none calls on your name, or pleads with you for mercy, therefore you have turned away from us, and turned us over to our sins, and yet, o Lord, you are our Father, we are the clay, you are the potter, we all are formed by your hand
Roman 3:23
For everyone has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God
Jeremiah 17:9
The human heart is the most deceitful of all things, and desperately wicked, who knows how bad it is
Psalms 14:2-3
The Lord looks down from heaven on the entire human race, He looks to see if any of them is truly wise, if any seeks God, but no, all have turned away, all have become corrupt, no one does good, not.a single one!
any that makes a bold claim that they are without sin is just fooling themselves
we all sin, though we strive not to
1 john 1:8
If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves, and not living in the truth
Isaiah 64:5-8
You gladly welcome those who do good, who follow godly ways, but you have been angry with us for we are not godly, we are constant sinners, how can people like us be saved? We are all infected and impure with sin, when we display our righteousness, they are nothing but filthy rags, like autumn leaves, we wither and fall, and our sins sweep us away like the wind, yet none calls on your name, or pleads with you for mercy, therefore you have turned away from us, and turned us over to our sins, and yet, o Lord, you are our Father, we are the clay, you are the potter, we all are formed by your hand
Roman 3:23
For everyone has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God
Jeremiah 17:9
The human heart is the most deceitful of all things, and desperately wicked, who knows how bad it is
Psalms 14:2-3
The Lord looks down from heaven on the entire human race, He looks to see if any of them is truly wise, if any seeks God, but no, all have turned away, all have become corrupt, no one does good, not.a single one!
any that makes a bold claim that they are without sin is just fooling themselves
we all sin, though we strive not to
T
Carey, I thank the Lord that when I got saved He placed me in a great church. There was a whole bunch of us, imperfect, learning to walk with the Lord, no one judging each other. We were there to love one another, encourage one another, pray for one another with real deep relationships. We let the Lord do the convicting, thats why the Holy Spirit is in us, to convict, restore, strengthen There was a very deep understanding not to tread into Gods shoes in the judging arena. We did what we were called to do and He did what He does best in changing us from glory to glory. As the years have past I have seen more and more try and step into Gods shoes. Condemning judging and basically having an awful attitude towards Christians who struggle. I asked the Lord why things are changing in this area and He explained this to me:
The original sin is " I will be like God, knowing good from evil". You then put a bible in someones hand who still lives from that place they will learn more and more about whats right and wrong but now they have Gods Word "backing them up" which makes them feel justified in their attitude. But when a heart is fully submitted to Him, His love and compassion will radiate from them knowing when to encourage, bless, pray for and ONLY correct if the Holy Spirit gives specific direction. God knows that sin will destroy BUT He also knows that "sharing" a persons sin with others will bring condemnation, guilt and shame so will only prompt correction from another person if He has tried on many occassion to try and convict the person Himself. The Lord loves to keep it between Him and the person in sin to try and resolve it. He did not come to the world to condemn but to save it. And God will clean up a person in HIS time. We dont suddenly become perfect the day we get saved. The bible also says that if a person is "caught in sin" restore them GENTLY. The last thing a person needs like the woman "caught" in adultery is harsh words, being told how sinful or disgusting they are etc.
People need to know their place.......and Gods place. There is a BIG difference between the 2.
Keep praying that the Lord will convict you, help you, release you, set you free from things that you know still need dealing with. And Im sure, once you have conquored those God will start on something new.
Be blessed
The original sin is " I will be like God, knowing good from evil". You then put a bible in someones hand who still lives from that place they will learn more and more about whats right and wrong but now they have Gods Word "backing them up" which makes them feel justified in their attitude. But when a heart is fully submitted to Him, His love and compassion will radiate from them knowing when to encourage, bless, pray for and ONLY correct if the Holy Spirit gives specific direction. God knows that sin will destroy BUT He also knows that "sharing" a persons sin with others will bring condemnation, guilt and shame so will only prompt correction from another person if He has tried on many occassion to try and convict the person Himself. The Lord loves to keep it between Him and the person in sin to try and resolve it. He did not come to the world to condemn but to save it. And God will clean up a person in HIS time. We dont suddenly become perfect the day we get saved. The bible also says that if a person is "caught in sin" restore them GENTLY. The last thing a person needs like the woman "caught" in adultery is harsh words, being told how sinful or disgusting they are etc.
People need to know their place.......and Gods place. There is a BIG difference between the 2.
Keep praying that the Lord will convict you, help you, release you, set you free from things that you know still need dealing with. And Im sure, once you have conquored those God will start on something new.
Be blessed
Carey, I thank the Lord that when I got saved He placed me in a great church. There was a whole bunch of us, imperfect, learning to walk with the Lord, no one judging each other. We were there to love one another, encourage one another, pray for one another with real deep relationships. We let the Lord do the convicting, thats why the Holy Spirit is in us, to convict, restore, strengthen There was a very deep understanding not to tread into Gods shoes in the judging arena. We did what we were called to do and He did what He does best in changing us from glory to glory. As the years have past I have seen more and more try and step into Gods shoes. Condemning judging and basically having an awful attitude towards Christians who struggle. I asked the Lord why things are changing in this area and He explained this to me:
The original sin is " I will be like God, knowing good from evil". You then put a bible in someones hand who still lives from that place they will learn more and more about whats right and wrong but now they have Gods Word "backing them up" which makes them feel justified in their attitude. But when a heart is fully submitted to Him, His love and compassion will radiate from them knowing when to encourage, bless, pray for and ONLY correct if the Holy Spirit gives specific direction. God knows that sin will destroy BUT He also knows that "sharing" a persons sin with others will bring condemnation, guilt and shame so will only prompt correction from another person if He has tried on many occassion to try and convict the person Himself. The Lord loves to keep it between Him and the person in sin to try and resolve it. He did not come to the world to condemn but to save it. And God will clean up a person in HIS time. We dont suddenly become perfect the day we get saved. The bible also says that if a person is "caught in sin" restore them GENTLY. The last thing a person needs like the woman "caught" in adultery is harsh words, being told how sinful or disgusting they are etc.
People need to know their place.......and Gods place. There is a BIG difference between the 2.
Keep praying that the Lord will convict you, help you, release you, set you free from things that you know still need dealing with. And Im sure, once you have conquored those God will start on something new.
Be blessed
The original sin is " I will be like God, knowing good from evil". You then put a bible in someones hand who still lives from that place they will learn more and more about whats right and wrong but now they have Gods Word "backing them up" which makes them feel justified in their attitude. But when a heart is fully submitted to Him, His love and compassion will radiate from them knowing when to encourage, bless, pray for and ONLY correct if the Holy Spirit gives specific direction. God knows that sin will destroy BUT He also knows that "sharing" a persons sin with others will bring condemnation, guilt and shame so will only prompt correction from another person if He has tried on many occassion to try and convict the person Himself. The Lord loves to keep it between Him and the person in sin to try and resolve it. He did not come to the world to condemn but to save it. And God will clean up a person in HIS time. We dont suddenly become perfect the day we get saved. The bible also says that if a person is "caught in sin" restore them GENTLY. The last thing a person needs like the woman "caught" in adultery is harsh words, being told how sinful or disgusting they are etc.
People need to know their place.......and Gods place. There is a BIG difference between the 2.
Keep praying that the Lord will convict you, help you, release you, set you free from things that you know still need dealing with. And Im sure, once you have conquored those God will start on something new.
Be blessed
Great post
Having the guilt of sin will keep anyone out of the Kingdom. This guilt of sin may arise from a white lie to committing genocide. All guilt of sin responds to the curse that comes with the law that exposes sin, that curse being punishment and death. The Blood of Yeshua is propitiation for that sin, that guilt that is, and we are seen as clean, never by our own doing, it is the gift of Yahweh, God, just as are His commandments and laws to do good. Or does anyone here believe grace is an excuse and liberty for license?
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I think a person would be very fortunate to find a church where the full Gospel of Grace Paul wrote was preached from the pulpit.
Unfortunately that leaves many with the guilt you mention. And for a sincere, and humble person who joins a church with much baggage and 'unacceptable sin' there is little chance of it truly being overcome. I have heard it said that many ministers are afraid to preach the full Gospel you mention as they are afraid people will use grace as a liberty and license to sin. It is a depressing thought.
For if you don't fully preach it what are you left with?
In Britain the vast majority of the core of churchgoers come from the more affluent half of society, and the more well educated half of society, having come from more secure, loving backgrounds/homes, hence, statistically there is far less chance(though not always) they will be consumed by the 'unacceptable sins' so they 'appear' to get by as they are.
Unfortunately that leaves many with the guilt you mention. And for a sincere, and humble person who joins a church with much baggage and 'unacceptable sin' there is little chance of it truly being overcome. I have heard it said that many ministers are afraid to preach the full Gospel you mention as they are afraid people will use grace as a liberty and license to sin. It is a depressing thought.
For if you don't fully preach it what are you left with?
In Britain the vast majority of the core of churchgoers come from the more affluent half of society, and the more well educated half of society, having come from more secure, loving backgrounds/homes, hence, statistically there is far less chance(though not always) they will be consumed by the 'unacceptable sins' so they 'appear' to get by as they are.
T
I was Carey, and it has certainly shown me how things have gotten bad over the years in many churches.He set the standard for me early in my Christian walk. Gods very nature is Love and an all consuming Holy Fire. His fire, his presence, His holiness is all we need to get cleaned up with and if I dont see His nature of love and acceptance in Christians then Im very wary of them. Surely if they KNOW God and spend time with Him they will be Christ like in nature? By their fruits you will know them
You did it again. You completely blow off what the Bible specifically teaches and instead isolate and proof text verses out of their context.
The first verse you used was this one...
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Yet here is the context...
1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1Joh 1:8 IS NOT a verse teaching an ongoing state of sinfulness like you imply. 1Joh 1:8 is in the context of approaching God in humility and confession in order to be CLEANSED FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.
Have you been cleansed from all unrighteousness?
Look at verse 7 for it teaches that one must be walking in the light in order to be CLEANSED OF ALL SIN by the blood.
1Joh 1:8 is a REPENTANCE verse. 1Joh 1:8 is what the Prodigal Son did after forsaking the rebellion of the pig pen, he approached his father in humility confessing his sins.
1Joh 2:1 speaks of "not sinning" and sinning being an IF. The word "IF" in the Greek is "ean" and it is associated with "uncertainty." Thus when John is speaking of sinning he is not teaching that a Christian sinning is a "sure thing." You on the other hand are asserting that the sin never stops and that 1Joh 1:8 is John teaching that anyone who claims to be walking in holiness and purity is a liar.
John also wrote this...
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Do you just get a big black marker and cross that passage out of your Bible? That passage completely contradicts your assertion that Christian's are always sinning.
The truth is clear that you don't want to forsake your sin and thus want to believe a Gospel message where you can be forgiven whilst you keep sinning. You have itching ears.
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
What is Isaiah 64 teaching? It is a prayer by Isaiah to God where he is reflecting on the corporate state of the men of his nation. Look at the context...
Isa 64:4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.
Isa 64:5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.
Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Isa 64:7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Look at verse 5 and see the contrast Isaiah makes between "doing right" and "doing wrong." He is not teaching that no-one has ever done right but rather that the people he identifies with (his nation) have turned away from God. It is their righteousness that is as filthy rags before God. Not the righteousness of people like Abel (Heb 11:4), Noah (Heb 11:7), Daniel and Job (Eze 14:14).
Yet you won't allude to those passages will you? No, you argue in favour of "perpetual unrighteousness" whilst we are in the flesh.
When Isaiah is writing that "none are calling on his name" (Isa 64:7) it is in the same context as this...
Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Psa 14:4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
Psa 14:5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
Which is the context Paul was quoting it in when he wrote this...
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
The context is the "rebellious people" and NOT the righteous. It is the rebellious people (like you) that do not understand, that do not seek after God, that have gone out of the way, that are unprofitable, and do not do good.
Paul in Romans 3 is comparing the Jewish people with the Gentile people and is asserting the fact that BOTH groups of people need Jesus Christ as saviour for they have all sinned. Read the Romans 1,2 and 3. That is the clear context. He is not arguing in favour of perpetual unrighteousness in people.
How about Jeremial 17:9 which you quoted? Here is the cotnext...
Jer 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
Jer 17:6 For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.
Jer 17:7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.
Jer 17:8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
You really think that the pure in heart are desperately wicked?
Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Or those who have...
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Or those who have...
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
You pick SINGLE verses and present them completely out of context to defend a life of ongoing sin. You also IGNORE what the Bible teaches about RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Therefore it is clearly apparent that you do not believe what the Bible actually teaches but instead worship a Jesus of your imagination. You have done this...
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
I hope and pray that you and all those who hold to the same view wake up and come out of this deception.
Jesus warned that MOST who profess His name will be deceived and will be rejected at the judgment.
The first verse you used was this one...
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Yet here is the context...
1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1Joh 1:8 IS NOT a verse teaching an ongoing state of sinfulness like you imply. 1Joh 1:8 is in the context of approaching God in humility and confession in order to be CLEANSED FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.
Have you been cleansed from all unrighteousness?
Look at verse 7 for it teaches that one must be walking in the light in order to be CLEANSED OF ALL SIN by the blood.
1Joh 1:8 is a REPENTANCE verse. 1Joh 1:8 is what the Prodigal Son did after forsaking the rebellion of the pig pen, he approached his father in humility confessing his sins.
1Joh 2:1 speaks of "not sinning" and sinning being an IF. The word "IF" in the Greek is "ean" and it is associated with "uncertainty." Thus when John is speaking of sinning he is not teaching that a Christian sinning is a "sure thing." You on the other hand are asserting that the sin never stops and that 1Joh 1:8 is John teaching that anyone who claims to be walking in holiness and purity is a liar.
John also wrote this...
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Do you just get a big black marker and cross that passage out of your Bible? That passage completely contradicts your assertion that Christian's are always sinning.
The truth is clear that you don't want to forsake your sin and thus want to believe a Gospel message where you can be forgiven whilst you keep sinning. You have itching ears.
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
What is Isaiah 64 teaching? It is a prayer by Isaiah to God where he is reflecting on the corporate state of the men of his nation. Look at the context...
Isa 64:4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.
Isa 64:5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.
Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Isa 64:7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Look at verse 5 and see the contrast Isaiah makes between "doing right" and "doing wrong." He is not teaching that no-one has ever done right but rather that the people he identifies with (his nation) have turned away from God. It is their righteousness that is as filthy rags before God. Not the righteousness of people like Abel (Heb 11:4), Noah (Heb 11:7), Daniel and Job (Eze 14:14).
Yet you won't allude to those passages will you? No, you argue in favour of "perpetual unrighteousness" whilst we are in the flesh.
When Isaiah is writing that "none are calling on his name" (Isa 64:7) it is in the same context as this...
Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Psa 14:4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
Psa 14:5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
Which is the context Paul was quoting it in when he wrote this...
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
The context is the "rebellious people" and NOT the righteous. It is the rebellious people (like you) that do not understand, that do not seek after God, that have gone out of the way, that are unprofitable, and do not do good.
Paul in Romans 3 is comparing the Jewish people with the Gentile people and is asserting the fact that BOTH groups of people need Jesus Christ as saviour for they have all sinned. Read the Romans 1,2 and 3. That is the clear context. He is not arguing in favour of perpetual unrighteousness in people.
How about Jeremial 17:9 which you quoted? Here is the cotnext...
Jer 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
Jer 17:6 For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.
Jer 17:7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.
Jer 17:8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
You really think that the pure in heart are desperately wicked?
Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Or those who have...
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Or those who have...
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
You pick SINGLE verses and present them completely out of context to defend a life of ongoing sin. You also IGNORE what the Bible teaches about RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Therefore it is clearly apparent that you do not believe what the Bible actually teaches but instead worship a Jesus of your imagination. You have done this...
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
I hope and pray that you and all those who hold to the same view wake up and come out of this deception.
Jesus warned that MOST who profess His name will be deceived and will be rejected at the judgment.
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T
Carey, tell you what I have also found interesting. When Christians are surrounded by people that genuinly love and not judge people are so much open to share their deepest sins to get help....because their HEART is to be clean and free. And freedom comes so much quicker because we share one anothers burdens and pray for those issues to set a person free.
But surrounded by judgemental people that love to just fire scripture at you because the plank in their own eye is so big they cant see it.....in those surroundings, people are afraid to share because they KNOW they will be judged. So the sin gets hidden deeeper and people start walking in deception. Judgemental Christians actually create a situtation that MAKES people walk in deception rather than the truth from their heart.It doesnt set captives free at all. They think by firing scripture at you will MAKE you just quit a sin........whereas God gets to the root of it and changes you from the inside out.
There are many people still living by a set of rules, doing their best to change their life according to Gods word....but its "self" that is doing it. Just like many people not saved can quit smoking.....they made that choice themselves. But when the Lord deals with the root of WHY you smoke....once the Son sets you free you are free indeed! Not only will you quit smoking whatever it was in you that drove you too it will also be healed.
Gods way of doing things is far better than mans idea of fixing things
But surrounded by judgemental people that love to just fire scripture at you because the plank in their own eye is so big they cant see it.....in those surroundings, people are afraid to share because they KNOW they will be judged. So the sin gets hidden deeeper and people start walking in deception. Judgemental Christians actually create a situtation that MAKES people walk in deception rather than the truth from their heart.It doesnt set captives free at all. They think by firing scripture at you will MAKE you just quit a sin........whereas God gets to the root of it and changes you from the inside out.
There are many people still living by a set of rules, doing their best to change their life according to Gods word....but its "self" that is doing it. Just like many people not saved can quit smoking.....they made that choice themselves. But when the Lord deals with the root of WHY you smoke....once the Son sets you free you are free indeed! Not only will you quit smoking whatever it was in you that drove you too it will also be healed.
Gods way of doing things is far better than mans idea of fixing things
H
Church leaders or fellow Christians.....I think sometimes as new Christians it can be very tough indeed as we realise just how much of our life has to be 'got rid of' to walk in obedience. I know i was really challenged as i began to read the Bible as a born again believer. I thought, ' I cannot do this....I love my Ciggs!! 'Yes, I did, I bit my nails badly all my life, I smoked....but when I was saved I read the Bile and within 3 months, I stopped. I used to watch movies that had 'sex scenes' and was convicted that is this a Godly film to watch....if multiple partners & promiscuity / sex before marriage is not in Gods will! How could movies happily depicting this as the norm be pleasing to God....? So I stopped and became more careful in what I watched, what I read & what I listened too. Not legalistic, just more discerning. This is what I was convicted of. It was not through any strength of character, not because I was a 'good Christian' but because Christ dwells in me as He does in all born again Christians and I prayed I could be obedient, that I could make my Father 'proud' of me, be a good witness for Him. And my life is changed....it's never been the same since that day and the way I look at life is changed. Of course, I agree, I have not stopped sinning....but I am so brought up short by the Holy Spirit when I do, and I am being continually convicted and challenged to follow Him. Obedience is still tough, but if we know we are sinning....and we carry on telling ourselves its ok coz we cannot be perfect....oh dear. We are on a journey, with the Holy Spirit in us! If we have this 'defeated' attitude, where is the power of the almighty, creator God who dwells in us that we keep talking about ? All things are possible.... God Bless. <><
All things are possible.... God Bless. <><