Dr. Michael Brown and the Sabbath Debate

sparkman · May 15, 2016

I shouldn't say they will never acknowledge the argument.

God could change their minds in a moment. It was rude for me to say that.

I recommend this video to you..these guys know what they are talking about:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-PstVcQ8oQ

sparkman · May 15, 2016

TMS said:

Grafted in, in terms of the blessings, not in terms of the Mosaic Covenant.

By the way, not even Jews are required to observe the Mosaic Covenant.

Read Romans 7:1-7.

They did continue to observe elements of it, as Acts 21 indicates. They even observed physical circumcision. However, Gentiles were not required to observe it.

Acts 15, Ephesians 2:13-15, Galatians 3 and 4, Hebrews 8 and 9, and II Corinthians 3 are some good Scriptures to check out in this regard.

By the way, I do not agree that Hebrews 8 and 9 is talking about the Levitical law only. It is talking about the Mosaic Covenant. Those who claim it is in effect as a whole are in error.

This does not mean, though, that the Mosaic Covenant doesn't have value to the believer. There are spiritual and moral principles which underlay the specific applications given to ancient Israel, and a spirit-led Christian can discern spiritual and moral direction from them. The specific applications may not apply, but the spiritual and moral principles do. However, the Law does not lead the Christian; the Holy Spirit does.

sparkman · May 15, 2016

prove-all said:

As an ex Armstrongite, let me translate this verse to you using Armstrongese.

First, this is a reasonable explanation of these verses:

This is a good reading and is using the ESV version:

Colossians 2:16-17 [SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. [SUP]17 [/SUP]These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ

What Paul is saying is that the substance, or reality, of the Sabbath and Festivals is Jesus Christ. He is the object that the shadow casts. The shadow is unclear, and lacks precision; it is but a vague blur of the reality.

Judaizers were continually judging Gentiles for non-observance of non-moral, shadow and type elements of the Mosaic Covenant. You will find accounts of this in Galatians in particular, but also Philippians 3. They were like mongrel dogs who followed behind the Apostle Paul trying to force Gentiles to live like Jews, claiming that Christ wasn't sufficient. Colossians 2 very much centers on the same theme; addressing a group of heretics who were making the same claims. The Colossian heretics had some proto-Gnosticism in the mix, but they were basically Judaizers too.

I'll explain what prove-all would likely believe as an Armstrongite

This is the KJV, which comes close to the way Herbert Armstrong wanted to read the verse, but not exactly:

Colossians 2: [SUP]16 [/SUP]Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: [SUP]17 [/SUP]Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

This is the Herbert Armstrong modified KJV rendering:

Colossians 2: [SUP]16 [/SUP]Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: [SUP]17 [/SUP]Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body of Christ (the Armstrongites; the true church) can judge you on this.

I kid you not..this is basically what Herbert Armstrong taught.

Notice the differences in the underlined parts.

They claim that no man had the right to judge the Colossians on the Sabbaths and festivals, but the church (the true church, the Armstrongites) did have the right to judge them on these things.

They teach that the Colossians were observing the Sabbath and festivals, and that some non-Christian group was judging them for their observance of the Sabbath and festivals. They claim that they have the right to judge others for non-observance of the Sabbath and festivals, and that we are the ones who are not in obedience to God because of our non-observance.

Like I said, they believe they are the ones who have "the truth" and are true Christianity. They view Sunday-observing Christians as being misled by a false version of Christianity, and that they have the real faith.

Again, I recommend watching this video by Meno Kalisher at Jerusalem Assembly. His fellowship observes the Sabbath and festivals, but does not judge non-observers. He knows these topics well, and this video in particular is good in explaining these issues. It looks like he is going to do a whole sermon series on topics related to the Law. They would be well worth reviewing. His channel has a lot of video sermons related to the festivals, too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-PstVcQ8oQ

prove-all · May 15, 2016

sparkman said:

I will go by what the bible says, not by my own reasoning or understanding,

In the bible, Paul mentions that the levitical priests are still offering sacrifices to God,
even after Christ's death on the cross. you can believe this or not but that is what it says.

(Hebrews 8:3-4) Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices,
and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer.

If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests
who offer the gifts prescribed by the law.

- are you saying God lied and there are no decendents of Levi current on this earth?

Deuteronomy 12:19 (KJV)
19Take heed to thyself that thou forsake not the Levite as long as thou livest upon the earth.

-there was sacrifices offered every day of the year, (Numbers 28:3) removing the
need for sacrifices does not remove or do away that the days they where tide to.
God did not want any sacrifices in the first place, but to [obey ] his voice.

22For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought
them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: But this thing

commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people:
and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

-the bible is plain about what sacrifices are now, do you sacrifice anything?

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies
a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood,
to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

prove-all · May 15, 2016

sparkman said:

again lets see what does Paul and the bible says about the law.

Paul was a Pharisee. A teacher of God's law. He continued to
call himself a Pharisee even after joining the church. (Acts 23:6)

Paul loved God's law. It was a delight to him. (Romans 7:22)

Paul called God's law holy. (Romans 7:12)

Paul knew that breaking God's law is the very definition of sin.(1 John 3:4)

Paul said that we don't nullify the law of God by our faith in Jesus Christ.(Romans 3:31)

Paul often read from the scriptures on the sabbath (Acts 17:2)

Paul was accused of forsaking the law of Moses(Act 21:21)
These accusations were shown to be false.

Paul said that those who refuse to submit to the law are "carnal minded"
and hostile to God. (Romans 8:7-8)

we could go on and on about the law.

prove-all · May 15, 2016

again I go to the bible, this verse reads

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body "is"of Christ

looking into the original verse in the bible the word "is" was not there,
italics means it was added, we find about in the 4th century added by a monk.

so add it if you want does not make right , but it was not inspired by the holy spirit to be there

AVoiceintheWilderness · May 15, 2016

2 Cor. 6:17

This is a very important point, Markum. I'm glad you mentioned it.

Was just listening to a major Christian radio station recently and the Dr./Pastor/Minister started stating repeatedly and emphatically that there has never been a single person that ever lived in Bible history or in the significant history of the Christian Faith that separated themselves from the church or lived a solitary lifestyle, not ONE, 'EVER.'

I was absolutely stunned. I could not believe what I was hearing broadcast to millions over the air waves. Absolute lies from the pit of hell. (Certainly not the first time, either, and won't be the last.) They do this for marketing purposes. All about the money these days. Truth is a mere inconvenience.

There are 'countless' extremely significant characters throughout the entirety of Christian History who lived mostly solitary lives and had a huge impact on the Christian Faith.

--All the way back to Moses with his 40 years of isolation in the desert after leaving Egypt to prepare him for his later life's work of the Exodus and leading of the Israelites to the Promised Land.

--John the Baptist was well known to have lived in the wilderness, clothing himself with animal skins (just like God adorned Adam & Eve) and living on locusts and wild honey before his critical contribution to the Faith in baptizing Jesus, an unequalled life achievement.

--Jesus, himself, spent 40 days all alone in the desert immediately after His baptism by John and before returning to proclaim His message of repentance and salvation.

--Paul of Tarsus spent 3 days fasting & praying after his encounter with the risen Jesus, being blinded; after regaining his sight, he spent 3 years in solitude before beginning his amazing life's work which brought us the vast majority of the New Testament.

There are many others in centuries since like St. Antony, St. Benedict, many monks and those who lived in communes, the Waldenses and Albigenses, etc. The list is endless of those who have had a great impact on Christian endeavors likely due in part to their separation from the blind masses.

The point: It's ok to separate yourself from the masses that don't seem to believe what you believe God is teaching you in His word. It's ok to not associate with those who seem to be more interested in living for man's approval than God's. It's ok to spend time alone, as much as feels right to you, to study the word of God and to pray and reflect on ideas that seem to strongly conflict with what TV, Radio or local Church leaders are preaching.

Luke 13:24-28 Reminds us that there will be 'MANY' who attempt to enter into the Narrow Gate of Heaven and will not be able to. They will 'ALL' believe they have been granted access by the company they kept, the approval of Man and by their 'do-gooder' nature that amounted to nothing in God's eyes.

If the majority of modern Christians are practicing social activities and observing certain weekly/monthly/yearly or holiday celebrations that just don't seem to be Biblical, don't hesitate to pray about these things and 'search the scriptures' for guidance from the 'only' Truth that is or ever will be.

Markum, you may know most of these things, but I found it to be a very important point for any and all who are following this thread. People are encouraged these days to 'fear' breaking away from mainstream social groups and the stigma that may follow or being ostracized by family or friends as a result.

Luke 12:51 Reminds us that Jesus did 'NOT' come to bring peace to the earth but to 'DIVIDE' the righteous from the unrighteous. The Tares will ultimately be divided from the Wheat and thrown into the flames. (Matt. 13:30)

God bless.

TMS · May 15, 2016

Sparkman a question for you?
Do you believe there are some people in this world that are living in Sin? Do you believe there are requirements for salvation?

Do you believe people that don't met those requirements are lost? do you claim others are in sin due to non-observance of anything like not observing what God has said about taking His name in vain or Not observing the command not to lie or kill?

"So, let me state it again..my issue is with Judaizers who claim others are in sin due to non-observance, not Sabbath observers who don't claim others are living in sin, and that keeping the Sabbath is a condition, requirement, or necessary fruit of salvation."

We are all different and God will judge us all individually. Do you have an issue with people holding up a standard called righteousness and saying Gods standard is righteousness?

Many SDA's and many other sabbath keeping denominations don't say that non sabbath keeping people will be lost, and if they do they shouldn't because God is Judge not man. To say that all SDA's say ""keeping the Sabbath is a condition, requirement, or necessary fruit of salvation"" is false. I know that SDA's believe in Righteousness by faith alone.

You can quote things they have said and prove it in your eyes but they believe the same as i do because i have personally talked to them.

Jas_4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

and they believe it is Good to keep the Sabbath

TMS · May 15, 2016

sparkman said:

They are called Ten not 9 or 11 or 101 commandments and God distinctly made two different laws.
After speaking the Ten Commandments
Deu 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.

Written on Stone and He added NO MORE. How are the 10 C an overview of the entire Mosaic Covenant? There is no overview of the sacrificial service in the 10 or any overview of the dietary requirements?

Who has the authority to add or take from Gods Law?

The laws that were given to Moses were about life and rules to live by, like the rules we have today to keep order (like speed limits) and they were laws about sacrifices and offerings, they were about new moons and festivals, and they included yearly Sabbaths or Sabbaths that were different to the weekly Sabbath.

Some of the ceremonies were offerings for sin and they were a shadow of the coming messiah. "Take a lamb, bull and transfer your sins to it and kill it", Lev 4. To do this ceremony after the death of Jesus would be a denial of the death and payment that Jesus gave. Heb 9:12

You said "a spirit-led Christian can read the Mosaic Covenant and discern, with spiritual eyes, the spiritual and moral principles underlying the specific application given to ancient Israel, and apply those."
So to read the principles about diet and lifestyle and believe it was Gods recommendation for His people and it was healthy for them, than i am not a judaizer because i follow some of those laws. If not eating Pig was something that God told the Jew to do for their GOOD and God knows what is best than, and i want what is best for my health than i'll follow that command.

I could go on but you have heard it all before.....
i just can't see how you can take the 10 and turn it into 9 because you don't see it as a moral commandment or because you see it as a shadow. Yes Jesus is our continual rest but that isn't grounds to do away with the commandment that God said to remember and placed in the middle of the other 9, in stone.

The Sabbath was given before there was ever a Jew and before there was sin.

James clearly states many years after the death of Jesus that to break one of the Ten is to break all.
Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Could He say, if you keep all nine and forget the Sabbaththou art become a transgressor of the law.

sparkman · May 15, 2016

TMS said:

All unsaved people are living in sin. The requirements for salvation are faith and repentance. Faith and repentance are related. One involves turning toward Jesus Christ, the other involves turning away from sin.

Sin is any variation from God's holiness. Read Matthew 5:48.

Before you quote I John 3:4 to me (as I would have done as an Armstrongite), be aware that I do not accept your rendering of the verse, if my predictive powers are accurate. The definition of sin most Sabbath observers have is "transgression of the law" , where you read "law" as the Ten Commandments.

I have a different view of I John 3:4. Sin (hamartia) is lawlessness or rebellion (anomia). "Transgression of the law" is a KJV translation of the Greek word anomia and I do not agree with that rendering. John is relating behavior (hamartia) with motivation (anomia). My view of this verse involves an understanding of the letter and its purpose. I do not agree with the typical Sabbath observer's definition of sin being any transgression of the Ten Commandments (or, in the case of Torah observers, any transgression of the 615 commandments of the Torah).

If your definition of sin is only the letter of the Ten Commandments, you have a pretty low standard. It is any violation of God's holiness.

See my previous posts to understand why the Sabbath, festivals, and clean/unclean meat laws are not part of the definition of sin for a New Covenant Christian.

TMS said:

All who fail to place their faith in Jesus Christ are lost, yes. If their LIFESTYLE reflects a constant life of sin, they are lost. If they have incidences of such sins in their lives, no, they are not lost. By the way, my position is that no true believer loses their salvation, and that all believers will manifest the fruit of obedience and works.

Again, if you're leading into inferring that sin is defined by the Ten Commandments, I disagree due to comments I've already made on this thread in great detail.

TMS said:

I am not sure if you are saying "God's standard = My standard" and claiming that your position on Sabbaths and festivals is unquestionably true. If you're saying that, and declaring non-observers unsaved, spiritually inferior, or in sin, then I'd consider you a Judaizer. The label more applies to those who are claiming others are unsaved, spiritually inferior or in sin, rather than having a personal, private conviction about the Sabbath and festivals.

Our salvation is all on the same basis..faith and repentance.

TMS said:

Show me where I said all SDAs are Judaizers. I didn't say that. I know some of them don't even believe their church's position on a number of doctrines.

I think you took remarks I made about Judaizers in general, and are claiming I said all SDAs are Judaizers which is not true.

I did make the remark that I have a big problem with the SDA organization due to the fact that their health care facilities perform elective abortions. While proclaiming the Sabbath as binding, they are killing children in the womb. I suppose this is due to their misunderstanding that only "breathers" are living human beings, but it's murder nonetheless. They strain at gnats while swallowing camels by their abortion stance.

For their own membership they allow abortion for rape, incest, and congenital defects which includes Down's syndrome children.

In fact, it's so bad that some SDAs refuse to evangelize Roman Catholics, because they know it's hypocritical to claim the Sabbath applies while at the same time their own organization is practicing abortion.

I am not making a statement about every single SDA, though.

TMS said:

I encourage anyone who thinks they need to keep the Sabbath, festivals, clean meat laws to do it, without judging others. That's what Romans 14 is about. The judging part is the big issue. Judaizers love to judge other Christians and to tell them they need to be keeping the Sabbath, festivals and clean meat laws. It's part of the Judaizer syndrome.

If you aren't doing that, you're not a Judaizer. If you are doing that, you are a Judaizer.

By the way, I was a Judaizer and I repented of it. So there's hope even for Judaizers.

And, as I said above, I would fellowship with a Sabbath and festival observing church, IF they were not Judaizers who cast rocks at other believers, or declared them unsaved due to non-observance. I posted links to Jerusalem Assembly, which is a Messianic Jewish organization that observes these things and does not judge non-observers. I understand Jews for Jesus is similar.

However, many Sabbath and festival observing organizations have aberrant theology, including denying the Trinity, the full deity of Jesus Christ, the writings of Paul, and accept extra biblical sources of inspiration.

sparkman · May 15, 2016

TMS said:

Read the Greek for James 2:12 and focus on the word law which is nomos.

Then come back to me and prove to me that it is referring to the Ten Commandments.

You CANNOT do this.

Research how nomos is used in the NT. Show me one place where it can only be referring to the Ten Commandments, and then we will have something to talk about.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/jas/2/12/t_conc_1148012

Make sure that it is referring to only the Ten Commandments, and cannot be referring to anything else.

Then, we have something to talk about.

If you do a careful word search you will see that you are practicing eisegesis, and are reading into your interpretation a presupposition that you already have. James is referring to the entire Mosaic Law (all 615 commandments) in those verses, and there is no way you can parse out the Ten Commandments from nomos.PROVE to me that he can only be referring to the Ten Commandments in these verses.

Also, show me where any human observed the Sabbath prior to Exodus 16 when God gave it to Israel. And, if it was to be a sign to the Israelites, wouldn't that infer no one else was observing it?

In addition, why did God march the Israelites five weeks straight before he gave them the Sabbath at the Wilderness of Sin? if the Sabbath was moral in nature and applied before then? He would be forcing them to sin by this march if this was the case.

Regarding the applicability of the Mosaic Covenant, read II Cor 3, Galatians 3 and 4, Hebrews 8 and 9, Acts 15, and especially Acts 7:1-6. The Sabbath, festivals, and clean meat laws were part of the Mosaic Covenant, which is no longer in effect. Colossians 2:16-17 covers the fact that the Sabbath and festivals are no longer applicable, and Mark 7 and Romans 14 covers the clean meat laws no longer being in effect.

And, why is Sabbath-breaking and eating unclean meats never addressed by Paul in any of his epistles, and why are they never listed on any of the sin lists to the Gentiles? We would expect some instruction to be given on these items if they still applied..instead we see nothing. Are we to suppose that no slave in the NT church had an unbelieving Gentile master who would not let him take the Sabbath? I seriously doubt that.

I've already given my position on these things on multiple threads. Some of these guys ask me the same questions every single time. I think they believe they are going to win the discussion by attrition

But, I guess it's good practice for me to respond.

prove-all · May 15, 2016

sparkman said:

[you] have a very bad habit of putting words into other peoples mouths.
I posted a bible verse once, and you put your own thoughts and ideas into it,
I never said [you] lost your salavation for leaving your former church.

I asked Did you take off your breastplate of righteousness ?
you where keeping Gods commandents, then stoped keeping them
and the devil must have attacked you because you feel back words hard.

-I was going by what the bible says

My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness

Thy testimonies that thou hast commanded are righteous and very faithful.

O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river,
and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

the breastplate of righteousness =thy commandments are righteousness

-so I applyed that you stoped keeping Gods commandents[sabbath observence]
again I am not your judge, why are you judging me for these things and calling me names.

For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?

But with him that standeth here with us this day before the Lord our God,
and also with him that is not here with us this day:

14For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing,
whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

-can you [lose the spirit or salavation] ? the bible says to Prove all things;
hold fast that which is good. lets again see what the bible says about this.

King David though so in - Psalm 51:11
Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power
in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver
those that are given to it.

-
1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that
all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4And did all drink the same spiritual drink:
for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

-
5But with many of them God was not well pleased:
for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6Now these things were [our examples], to the intent we
should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore
he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.

He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God,
who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

-
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed
unto the day of redemption.

-what about these bible verses telling us those [who were once enlightened]?

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of
the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;seeing they crucify
to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it,
and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected,
and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

-also do you know the bible says God does not hear the prayers of sinners?

16The face of the Lord is against them that do evil, to cut off
the remembrance of them from the earth.

29The Lord is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.

2But your [iniquities] have separated between you and your God,
and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

31Now we know that God heareth not [sinners]: but if any man
be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

12For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open
unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that [do evil].

-
Proverbs 6:16-19 (NIV)
16 There are six things the LORD hates, seven that are detestable to him:
17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil,

19 a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers.

gotime · May 15, 2016

A problem I see here and I am referring to links in the original post, is this.

People assume that every time the word Sabbath is mentioned then the same things is being talked about. The problems with such thinking is, 1. its wrong. 2. If its wrong then the conclusions made because of this are also in error.

The fact that there is no distinction made between the Sabbath of creation and the feast Sabbaths is faulty at its core. The fact that when you talk to people they think that any text that talks about a day can be used in knowing if the Sabbath should be kept or not is laughable. and the fact that people think that any text that says the word Sabbath is referring to the same thing is also laughable. and only reveals a neglect of proper thought and study.

JesusLives · May 16, 2016

Then there is the fact that there will come a day when we all stand before God and answer to Him it will be a sober day and not a laughing matter. What will we say to Him on that day?

Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord......also Lord of the Sabbath.

TMS · May 16, 2016

sparkman said:

Nomos mean LAW plain and simple.
It doesn't mean a specific law, but the law can be determined by the context.

James is specific about which law because there's more then one law.

i know it is referring to the Ten Comandments because it quotes them.
Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

prove-all · May 16, 2016

sparkman said:

Below is a list of languages that indicate a seven day weekly cycle
with the seventh day as the Sabbath / Rest.

Shemitic
Hebrew Bible Yom Ha Shabbath or Day of the Sabbath
Hebrew (ancient and modern) Shabbath or Sabbath
Targum of Onkelos (Hebrew literature) Yom Shviaa or Day Seventh AND Sabbath or Sabbath
Kurdistan Jews (Targum dialect) Yoymet Shabbat Kodesh or Holy Sabbath Day
Ancient Syriac Shabbatho or Sabbath
Chaldee Syriac (Kurdistan; Urumia, Persia) Shapta or Sabbath
Samaritan (Nablas, Palestine) (use old Hebrew letters) Yoma Hasheviah or Day the Seventh AND Shabbath or Sabbath
Babylonian (Euphrates and Tigris Valleys, Mesopotamia) Sabatu or Sabbath
Assyrian (Euphrates & Tigris Valleys, Mesopotamia) Sabatu or Sabbath
Arabic (very old names) Shiyar or Chief or Rejoicing Day
Arabic (ancient and modern; W. Asia, E, W & N Africa) Assabt or The Sabbath
Maltese (Malta) Issibt or Sabbath
Tigre (Abyssinia) Sanbat or Sabbath
Amharic (Abyssinia) Sanbat or Sabbath
Falasha (Jews of Abyssinia) Yini Sanbat or The Sabbat

Hamitic
Coptic (Egypt; a dead language for 300 years) Pi Sabbaton or The Sabbath
Orma or Galla (south of Abyssinia) Zambada or Sabbath
Tamashek or Towarek (ancient Libyan or Numidian) Ahal Essabt or The Sabbath Day
Kabyle or Berber (Ancient Numidian; N Africa) Ghas or Sabbath Day
Hausa (Central Africa) Aseebatu or The Sabbath

Japhetic
Sanscrit (India) Shanivar or Saturn-day
Hindi (India) Shumiwar or Saturn-day
Pali (India) Sanivaro or Saturn-day
Urdu or Hindustani (Islamic and Hindu, India) Shamba or Sabbath; And Sanichar or Saturn
Pashto or Afghan (Afghanistan) Khali or Unemployed day; And Shamba or Holiday, Sabbath
Pahlavi or Pahlavi-Pazand (Ancient Persian) Kevan or Saturn; And Shambid or Fragrance - The pleasantest day of the week; And Dies Sabbati or Sabbath
Persian (Persia; Modern Iran) Shambih or Holiday, Sabbath
Armenian (Armenia) Shapat or Sabbath
Kurdish (Kurdistan) Shamba or Sabbath
Brahuiky (Beluchistan) Awalihafta or First or Chief of the Seven; And Shambe or Sabbath

Tartaric
Mongolian (Sharra-Mongolian; Eastern Mongolia) Sanitear and Bemba or The Son of the Sun, Saturn
Kalmuk (Western Mongolia) Bembe Graku or Saturn Planet
Turkish (Osmanlian; Turkey) Yomessabt or Day the Sabbath
Lazen (Pashelik of Trebisond) Ssabatun or Sabbath

Monosyllabic
Chinese (Roman Catholic; earlier) Chanlitsi or Worship-day Seven
Mohammadan Chinese Saibitai or Sabbath
Annamite (Annam) Ngaythubay or Day in order Seven
Ancient Peguan (Pegu-Burma) T'pauh or (Day) Seven
Khassi (Cossyah Hills, East of Bengal) Ka sngi sait-jain or A day to wash clothes; Purification-day
Tibetan (Tibet) Za-pen pa or (Planet Seven)
Boutan (Little Tibet) Pen-pa or Eye of God=Saturn; AND Odsardunpa or Seventh Brilliant Star
Georgian (Caucasus) Shabati or Sabbath
Suanian (Caucasus)Ingouish (Caucasus) Sammtyn or Sabbath
Aware or Avar (Daghistan; Cis-Caucasus) Samat qo or Sabbath Day

Polynesian
Malayan (Sumatra) hari Sabtu or Day Sabbath
Javanese (Java) Saptoe (saptu) or Sabbath
Sunda (West Java) Saptu or Sabbath
Dayak (Borneo) Sabtu or Sabbath
Makssar (Southern Celebes and Salayer Islands) Sattu or Sabbath
Bugis (Celebes) Sattu or Sabbath
Malagassay (Madagascar) Alsabotsy or The Sabbath
Nuforian (NW New Guinea) Ras Fiek or Day Seven

African
Swahili (East Africa) Assabu or The Sabbath
Congo (West Africa) Satade or Saturday; AND Kiaosabulu or Sabbado: Sabbath
Isolated Languages?
Wolof (Sengambia, W Africa) Alere-asser or Last Day - Sabbath
Fulah (W Africa) Essibt or The Sabbath
Mandingo (South of Senegal, W Africa) Sibiti or Sabbath
Teda (Central Africa) Essebdu or The Sabbath
Bornu or Kanuri (Central Africa) Sibda or Sabbath
Fulfulde (Central Africa) Assebdu or Sabbath
Sonyal (Central Africa) Assebdu or Sabbath
Logone (Central Africa) Se-sibde or Sabbath
Wandals (Central Africa) Sidba or Sabbath
Bagrimma (Central Africa) Sibbedi or Sabbath
Maba (Central Africa) Sab. or Sabbath

Miscellaneous
Norman French (10th and 11th centuries) Seabedi, Samaday, Semadi or Sabbath Day
Ancient French (12 and 13th centuries) Samedi or Sabbath Day
D?oc. France (ancient and modern) Dissata, Dissate or Day Sabbath
Ecclesiastical Roman Sabatum
Parliamentary (British) Dies Sabbati
Basque (Spain and France) Larumbat or One Quarter (moon)
Finnish (Finland) Lauvantai or Corruptions of Icelandic Laugardagur
Estonian (Estonia) Lau-paaw or Bathday
Livonian (Baltic Russia) Puol-paava or Half Day
Lap (Laplanders, Norway) Lavardak or Corruption of Ice. Lang.
Morduin (Russia) Subbota, Suota or Sabbath
Tsheremissian (Russia) Kuks-keca or Dry-day (day without work)
Permian (Russia) Subota or Sabbath
Votiak (Russia)
Hungarian (Hungary) Szombat or Sabbath
Ostiac (Russia) Chotmetchatl or Sixth-day; AND Juolynchatl or Hinder end-day
Greek (Greece) (Sabbath)
Modern Greek (Greece) (Sabbath)
Latin (Italy) Sabbatum or Sabbath; AND Dies Saturni or Day of Saturn
Italian (Italy) Sabato or Sabbath
Spanish (Spain) Sabado or Sabbath
Portuguese (Portugal) Sabado or Sabbath
French (France) Samedi or Sabbath-day
Roman (Spain, Catalonia) Dissapte or Day-Sabbath
Wallachian (Romania or Wallachia) Sambata or Sabbath
Old High German (South Germany) Sambaztag or Sabbath's day
High German (Germany) Samstag or Sabbath's day
Icelandic (Iceland) Laugardagur or (of bath-day)
Swedish (Sweden) Lordag or Corruption of Icelandic Laugardagur
Danish (Denmark) Laverdag or Corruption of Icelandic Laugardagur
Old Slave (Bulgaria) Subbota or Sabbath
Russian (Russia) Subbota or Sabbath
Illyrian (Dalmatia, Serbia) Subota or Sabbath
New Slovenian (Illyrie in Austria) Sobota or Sabbath
Bulgarian (Bulgaria) Subbota or Sabbath
Polish (Poland) Sobota or Sabbath
Bohemian (Bohemia) Sobota or Sabbath
Lusatian (Saxony) Sobota or Sabbath
Polabic (borders of the Elbe) Subuta or Sabbath
Lithuanian (Lithuania) fubata or Sabbath
Prussian (Prussia; Germany) Sabatico or Sabbath
English Bible (England) The Seventh Day, The Sabbath

this could not have happened if there was no flood and no tower of Babel.
this should prove the Sabbath day was known back then.

There is NO natural weekly cycle in nature that man can follow, or from the stars.
It is from creation week, when God placed his presence in it making it holy and known.

how did Noah know how to record months and years when the flood happened,
if he did not know Gods calander or new moons

gotime · May 16, 2016

Hey sparkman,

I am curious with this question that you asked someone else.

Also, show me where any human observed the Sabbath prior to Exodus 16 when God gave it to Israel. And, if it was to be a sign to the Israelites, wouldn't that infer no one else was observing it?

There is an assumption here, namely that if there is no mention of anyone keeping the Sabbath before that point then no one did.

That is speculation is it not? Can you prove that no one ever did? The answer is a resounding no. I hope you get the point I am making. The question in reality offers no insight.

I am not picking at you just editing a thought pattern that leads to false measurements of truth. For example lets take that same question but a little edited. Show me where homosexuality was condemned before Leviticus? Now does the fact that there is no mention now prove that it was OK before Moses? no of course not.

But with the Sabbath we do have a clue, and By Sabbath I am referring to the 7th day Sabbath here.

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Jesus makes it clear that the Sabbath was made for man. That word man is mankind/humanity. And Jesus is referring to when it was made.

That the 7th day Sabbath is the one being refereed to is not in question as Context shows it to be. So we are not talking about feast Sabbaths here.

This leads us to Gen 2. Notice its not made for Jews but man. thus this is a heavy indication that Adam and Eve indeed did keep it. Or are we to assume that God excluded them from the title of mankind? No. It is a reasonable reaction to this evidence to see that the Sabbath was indeed kept before exodus 16. It may not be a flood of evidence but it does come into the equation.

As Far as being a sign to Israel, there is an assumption here also. It seems your assuming Sabbath has Israelite origin. But this is quickly dismissed when one examines Genesis 2. It pre-dates the Jewish nation and if that is in Question let the commandment given to Israel by God clear that up for you as it states the Commandment as a memorial of the Sabbath in Genesis 2. See Exodus 20 on the Sabbath.

Plus we have seen Jesus did not see it as only for Jews. Isaiah said it was for Gentiles also. The commandment itself includes the Stranger/Gentile.

My point is this, You have taken a verse such as this:

Eze 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.

Or one like it and assumed that this is the core or foundation or reason for the Sabbath. This is erroneous as the afore mentioned points show its origin and connection to be founded in creation.

This text does not change that reality it rather states that God is using that memorial as a sign that He sanctifies them. Its an additional use that one would expect for a number of reasons.

1, Gods Sabbath was made for man as a memorial of creation. It stands to reason that if God called a people to Himself then He would give it to them. This does not mean its meaning changes.

2, God was the one that sanctified them, Set them apart for Holy use, It stands to reason that God used the Sabbath which he set apart for holy use as a sign of this reality.

But this in no way does away with its original intention.

Markum1972 · May 16, 2016

sparkman said:

I agree with what you are saying here. I agree with your perspective as well. I am just now learning about a lot of this stuff and have just barely scraped the surface. I will tell you this, there are those I have met that will talk to you in the way you have mentioned. I only know because I have met them. I don't consider myself an authority in these things as I have much to learn. However, I would be interested in studying it with others. Hopefully you are greeted by someone that knows about this that is walking in love and abiding in the spirit like it happened with me. I may be able to talk to my wife about scheduling to meet to study the subject. It can be a lot of fun to learn together. Pray about it and let me know.

prove-all · May 16, 2016

sparkman said:

well first off I am not an Armstrongite like you where, so please stop calling me this.
Do you want me to start calling you a Michael Brownite, seem you promote him alot.
So I do not know what they do on these holydays of God, ask them or the Word of God.

Going by The bible it says that God gave us the moon to [tell seasons]

He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his going down.

to observe any of Gods feast days, you have to know when the year starts,
so anyone observing Gods Holy days, needs to know when new moon[year] happens.

“This month [in the spring] shall be unto you the beginning of months …” (Exodus 12:2).
Leviticus 23:2 starts all of Gods very special Holy convocations to Him our God.

2Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning (the feasts of the Lord),
which ye shall proclaim (to be holy convocations), even these are (my feasts).

4“These are the appointed feasts of the LORD, the holy convocations,
which you shall proclaim at [the time appointed for them].

- Gods months started in the spring, the month called Nisan,
Jesus Christ ran off of Gods calander, not romans doctrine.

Is it lawful for us to give tribute unto Caesar, or no?
Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?

Even Noah knew and recorded the flood events using [Gods calander].
to know the time appointed for feasts, we observe the new moons to know when.

- so it says Gods feasts made by God for God, a Holy convocation to the Lord.
the annual sabbaths were observed before mt. sini, before the ordinances
contained in the law of Moses were given. they were not part of the law of Moses.

-like they had to count 50 days to come to Pentacost, being all in one accord.
if they where [not] keeping the holyday together after Christ arose,
would they be filled with the holy spirit, and to show this new power that day?.

we are told to come out of this world and not follow its ways.
and the only sign given this evil generation deals with his Holy days.
the world follows the roman calander and its seasons and tradations.

again the bible says

Exodus 12:14 “And this day shall be unto you for [a memorial];
and ye shall keep it a feast to the Lord throughout your generations;
ye shall keep it [a feast] by an ordinance [for ever].

1And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying,
2This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.
3Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take
to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:

24And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.

43And the Lord said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover:
There shall no stranger eat thereof:
44But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him,
then shall he eat thereof.
45A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.

47All the congregation of Israel shall keep it.

48And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord,
let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be
as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

-

16And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall
be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which
every man must eat, that only may be done of you.

17And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought
your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations
by an ordinance for ever.18In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even,
ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.
“And in the first day [of the seven, 15th of Abib] there shall be an holy convocation, and in
the seventh day [21st of Abib] there shall be an holy convocation to you.

And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread;for in this selfsame day [the 15th Abib] have
I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day [the 15th,
not the 14th] in your generations by an ordinance for ever”(verses 16-17).

This day is a memorial, not a shadow of the cross. A memorial of deliverance
from Egypt, which pictures to us deliverance from sin!

Observe that the Days of Unleavened Bread are a period, having two high-day sabbaths.
And this period is established forever— given while the Israelites were still in Egypt.

—before one word of the ceremonial law of Moses had been given or written
before God even proposed the Old Covenant! What the law of Moses or the
Old Covenant did not bring or institute, they cannot take away!

Exodus 13:3 “And Moses said unto the people, Remember this day, in which ye
came out from Egypt.” This was the 15th of Abib. Verses 6, 8-10:

“Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, and in the seventh day shall be
a feast to the [Eternal memorial)—“And it shall be for a sign”—that is, having
also a future meaning—“unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between
thine eyes”—having to do with both works and will—why?—

“that the Lord’s law may be in thy mouth …. Thou shalt therefore keep this ordinance ….”

-food and drink offerings now?

The Passover only pictures the death of Christ for the remission of sins
that are past (Romans 3:25).

1Co 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you,
That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat:
this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped,
saying, This cup is the [new testament] in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it,
in remembrance of me.

referring back to this...

Luk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat
this [passover with you] before I suffer: For I say unto you, I will not
any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

Luk 22:17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said,
Take this, and divide it among yourselves:

Luk 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine,
until the kingdom of God shall come.

Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them,
saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying,
This cup is [the new testament] in my blood, which is shed for you.

Do what in remembrance of me? They were taking the Passover.
Jesus changed the symbles of the passover only, did not do away with it.

The Passover service also consists of the foot washing...

Joh 13:12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments,
and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
Joh 13:13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
Joh 13:14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet;
ye also ought to wash one another's feet.

Joh 13:15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
Joh 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord;
neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Joh 13:17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.
and then Paul says this...

1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth
the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump,
as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep [the feast],
not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness;
but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

- are you keeping or observing food and drink offerings as told us to do by keeping
the new testement symbols of passover and the feast of unleavened bread?

- and why is there so much confusion on this issue?

The Lord hath done that which he had devised;
he hath fulfilled his word that he had commanded in the days of old:
he hath thrown down, and hath not pitied: and he hath caused thine enemy
to rejoice over thee, he hath set up [the horn of thine adversaries].

And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints
of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his
hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

prove-all · May 16, 2016

MsSuzanna said:

yes I should have not said that last part, that was rude of me sorry to you ,
and to sparkmans for saying that, but this is no excuse for his hatred for his former church,
and blaming his troubles on them, and keeps draging it through the mud

Dr. Michael Brown and the Sabbath Debate

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