Doctrine of Unconditional Election

reneweddaybyday · Oct 11, 2021

Look at the example shown in Genesis 4.

I know there's not much in Scripture relating to Abel and his sacrifice. However, God does provide enough information to understand that Abel offered in faith and Cain did not offer in faith.

in Hebrews 11:4 we read

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

We know from Scripture that faith by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (Rom 10:17).

In order for Abel to offer a more excellent sacrifice by faith, he had to have heard the Word of God.

By the same token, Cain had to have heard the same Word of God. However, Cain did not offer by faith. Cain offered through his own means. Cain was self-willed (prideful) and did not submit himself to the Will of God.

And in Gen 4:7, God gave further instruction to Cain in order for Cain to be accepted and Cain still suppressed the truth in unrighteousness.

God spoke directly to Cain (Gen 4:6) and Cain still resisted. Then he went and murdered Abel.

We know Cain could hear God because he spoke to God (Gen 4:13-14) and, thereafter, Cain left God (Gen 4:16).

I believe God deals (and has dealt in the past) with unbelievers in the same manner He dealt with Cain. We know God dealt with pharaoh in the same manner (although at the point, God used a spokesperson (Moses)).

In our day and time, God uses believers to make His Word known – 1 Cor 1:21 it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

rogerg said:

Yes, faith is not "against Christ". Faith will always lead to Christ.

However, we get in our own way when we suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18). It's like putting a kink in the hose. We (our pride) get between faith and the Lord Jesus Christ.

We have to die to self (which is difficult even for believers to do at times, much less unbelievers).

Our will is to be submitted to God's Will. But our pride gets in the way … the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, the pride of life. That's what happened to Eve. satan lied to her and she saw that the tree was good (lust of the eyes), a tree to be desired (lust of the flesh) to make one wise (pride of life).

rogerg said:

yeah, I'm kinda weird in that regard.

rogerg said:

Not true. I understand what you've posted.

rogerg said:

Then you do not believe Romans 4:2-5 where God clearly indicates that faith is not works:

Romans 4:

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

The one who "worketh not" is the one who "believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly" and his/her faith is "counted for righteousness"

rogerg said:

sad that you think dying to self is somehow something "permitted from us for it". In fact, dying to self is exactly what you describe because a dead person is nothing and has nothing to contribute.

justpassinthrough · Oct 13, 2021

Icedaisey said:

In that context it‘s referring to obeying the Gospel.

justpassinthrough · Oct 13, 2021

Icedaisey said:

The one who does not believe will not obey, because he doesn’t believe.

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB

Icedaisey · Oct 13, 2021

justpassinthrough said:

" Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."
Clearly referring to atheists. Because God calls whom He will to Salvation.

The Christian is indwelt by God's Holy Spirit the moment we,they, accept Christ. Because God called us to receive His free irrevocable gift of faith and Salvation due to his grace.
Any teaching to the contrary comes against that fact and is false the moment it is thought or given attention.

Ours is Eternal Salvation. Not a conditional reprieve.

The Indwelt Once Sealed Eternally Sealed Christian is not insecure. 😇 We are Eternally in Christ. And He is eternally in us.

https://eternalsecurity.info/sealed-by-the-holy-spirit/

rogerg · Oct 13, 2021

reneweddaybyday said:

I didn't really want to reply further but felt I should add the following to the above

Not sure what exactly what you meant by dying to self or what your point was, but if you're saying that is something we should do, I disagree. Before becoming born-again we are all already dead spiritually- hence the doctrine of becoming born-again.
For those to whom it is given, salvation is fully a gift that is solely by, and through, God's grace, and nothing else.

Icedaisey · Oct 13, 2021

rogerg said:

Do you ever get the feeling that there is a predisposition in this world where a collection of misogynist inclined person's take comfort in holding to the faith sometimes referred to as, "I Am" a groveling clump of dirt?

As in, I'm not worthy, I'm not secure in Christ, I have to obey, obey, obey, which is the same as, work, work, work, or else one little slip up and I'm back to being damned to hell again because I'm still a sinner who sins and worthy of no thing good.

Which can be why some think the purpose of the Great Tribulation is to put the church through hell on earth. To test our metal and see if we will make it through and thus deserve heaven.👀

It is true. They really can make that stuff up.And abrogate the scriptures in the process. Just to defend what they as individuals find themselves worthy of.

Which can explain why those type people, that groveling clump of dirt sect, can't understand the actual Gospel as written.

Maybe that's the meaning behind Paul's observation, for now we see through a glass, darkly.

Because those clumps of misogynistic dirt and the unrepentant sinners gaze toward the truth is obscured because there is no light of Holy Spirit shining from within them. That they would otherwise then realize the shadows that make for the illusion they think is reality are dissipated. And the fear those dark wraiths of falsity generated vanquished by the Son.

In short, were wasting our time trying to reach those God does not already know.
And we know who they are because they cannot see or hear the truth of God in Christ. They can only insist it isn't there to be read as clearly as God's Saints perceive it to be. Because God wills they do not see, that they may understand. Nor hear, so as to come to the knowledge of His truth.

Matthew 13, Mark 4.
Jesus message is eternal. What was then, is now centuries later .

rogerg · Oct 13, 2021

Icedaisey said:

Do you ever get the feeling that there is a predisposition in this world where a collection of misogynist inclined person's take comfort in holding to the faith sometimes referred to as, "I Am" a groveling clump of dirt?

As in, I'm not worthy, I'm not secure in Christ, I have to obey, obey, obey, which is the same as, work, work, work, or else one little slip up and I'm back to being damned to hell again because I'm still a sinner who sins and worthy of no thing good.

Oh absolutely. They just can't accept that God's mercy and grace is sufficient.

Icedaisey · Oct 13, 2021

rogerg said:

Agreed. Because they don't comprehend what that all means. They are of the world and as such read through the eyes and consciousness of the world. Where nothing is truly free, everything has a price, and eternal translates to conditional.

Seriously, have you ever just, and without imagining your response as you read, taken in what some people write as they defend what they supposedly believe the Bible is saying?
If they're sincere, that's sad. But, the sad part is overcome by it being evidence the scriptures will always be proven true no matter what era it is, what century, etc...

Then there's always room for "that other". Which is not actually sincere and yet wrong headed.
Years ago I worked with an atheist. Everyone knew he was an atheist. From his "NO GOD" plate on the front bumper of his car, to his occasional remarks when on break.
This was before I bought a PC and instead used my phone to get online when necessary.

This guy though used his phone and home PC to troll religious forums. Any religious forum. It was his hobby. He'd even do this on break at work. He'd laugh and share his screen around the table so we could see his latest post to a Muslim, or a Messianic, etc....
He loved it. Why? I asked him once. Then I never sat near him again.
He enjoyed imagining the "brain bleed" his remarks would give to that Jew, Christian, Muslim, Messianic, when he'd hold to a completely contrived perspective that was blatantly counter to that person's particular faith. Thing about that is, he'd research to find out what they each held in faith in order to manufacture his ridiculous counter.
He loved it!

Every now and then I'll read something when I'm browsing about in any Christian discussion forum, particularly as was his favorite spot in our communities, the Bible forums, and read something that reminds me of him. I think to myself, Todd, is that you? But I never ask.
Largely because I'm thinking he just might one day be on a forum and say, yes!

rogerg · Oct 13, 2021

Icedaisey said:

And what is surprising is that many (at least superficially) seem to agree at some level that works for salvation is in violation of the Bible's message, and yet, immediately add a "but" of one kind or another to it, not realizing or caring they're transgressing the doctrine of grace. They are just unable or unwilling (or maybe both) to grasp that Christ alone is Savior, and they are not.

Icedaisey · Oct 13, 2021

rogerg said:

God needs our help to save us.
A far more common errant belief than we'd think actually.

Nebuchadnezzer · Oct 13, 2021

brightfame52 said:

Its crystal clear that the scriptures teach election, even unconditional election in salvation. Most people will agree that election is taught in scripture, but very few agree that its unconditional, and totally by grace and Gods sovereign good pleasure, not outside of Himself. Even the OT scripture indicates Gods sovereign prerogative in election and having mercy on whomever He will Ex 33:19

And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. In this discriminatory fashion God exhibits His Glory

Now Paul alludes to this scripture in his treatise on unconditional election in Rom 9:11-16

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

We learn that there is what Paul terms "the purpose of God according to election" This is a salvaic purpose,. its answering the seeming dilema as to why so many jews in national israel are being lost Rom 9:1-6

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Click to expand...

Its from this background that Paul develops his treatise on the doctirne of unconditional election, or "the purpose of God according to election"

Now let us look at what Rom 9 tells us: By writer of godsonlygospel.com "election is just not fair.

Speaking of Jacob and Esau, the sons of Isaac and Rebecca, Paul the apostle states: "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, THAT THE PURPOSE OF GOD ACCORDING TO ELECTION MIGHT STAND, not of works but of Him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (Rom. 9:11-13). What a passage to confound the free willer! No wonder the Arminian minister prefers to conveniently shy away from this chapter in Romans and hide these things from his listeners. These verses show clearly that God made choice between Jacob and Esau before they were even born! God made choice between them as to which He would love and which He would hate. This was done, the Scriptures say, so that the purpose of God according to election might stand, an election which obviously could not have been based on any deeds, actual or foreseen, good or bad, that man had done or would do. The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, not by anything they have done, that none should boast. The good works they do were appointed, or prepared, for them to do and they were not elected because of any good works they were foreseen would do:

I do differ with the author regarding his statement "The saved are those who are elected by grace through faith, "

I believe the saved are those who are elected by Grace, minus the faith, but Faith being the consequent of election by grace.

However the main point is, the elect are not elected based upon any foreseen actions or deeds , good or bad, that man has done or will do, because the election of grace was made before they were born to do any actions whatsoever, thats the Apostles point.

This treatise by Paul should forever eliminate the false idea that election is based upon anything foreseen in or of the sinner. Its totally unconditional ! Its totally of Sovereign prerogative !

1 Corinthians 2:11-13
11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.
13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual

reneweddaybyday · Oct 14, 2021

rogerg said:

Perhaps the words of the Lord Jesus Christ will help you understand:

Matthew 16:24-25 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

What does the Bible mean by "dying to self"?

The concept of "dying to self" is found throughout the New Testament. It expresses the true essence of the Christian life, in which we take up our cross and follow Christ. Dying to self is part of being born again; the old self dies and the new self comes to life (John 3:3–7). Not only are Christians born again when we come to salvation, but we also continue dying to self as part of the process of sanctification. As such, dying to self is both a one-time event and a lifelong process.

Jesus spoke repeatedly to His disciples about taking up their cross (an instrument of death) and following Him. He made it clear that if any would follow Him, they must deny themselves, which means giving up their lives—spiritually, symbolically, and even physically, if necessary. This was a prerequisite for being a follower of Christ, who proclaimed that trying to save our earthly lives would result in our losing our lives in the kingdom. But those who would give up their lives for His sake would find eternal life (Matthew 16:24–25; Mark 8:34–35). Indeed, Jesus even went so far as to say that those who are unwilling to sacrifice their lives for Him cannot be His disciples (Luke 14:27).

The rite of baptism expresses the commitment of the believer to die to the old, sinful way of life (Romans 6:4–8) and be reborn to a new life in Christ. In Christian baptism, the action of being immersed in the water symbolizes dying and being buried with Christ. The action of coming out of the water pictures Christ's resurrection. Baptism identifies us with Christ in His death and resurrection, portraying symbolically the whole life of the Christian as a dying to self and living for and in Him who died for us (Galatians 2:20).

Paul explains to the Galatians the process of dying to self as one in which he has been "crucified with Christ," and now Paul no longer lives, but Christ lives in him. Paul's old life, with its propensity to sin and to follow the ways of the world, is dead, and the new Paul is the dwelling place of Christ who lives in and through him. This does not mean that when we "die to self" we become inactive or insensible, nor do we feel ourselves to be dead. Rather, dying to self means that the things of the old life are put to death, most especially the sinful ways and lifestyles we once engaged in. "Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires" (Galatians 5:24). Where we once pursued selfish pleasures, we now pursue, with equal passion, that which pleases God.

Dying to self is never portrayed in Scripture as something optional in the Christian life. It is the reality of the new birth; no one can come to Christ unless he is willing to see his old life crucified with Christ and begin to live anew in obedience to Him. Jesus describes lukewarm followers who try to live partly in the old life and partly in the new as those whom He will spit out (Revelation 3:15–16). That lukewarm condition characterized the church of Laodicea as well as many churches today. Being "lukewarm" is a symptom of unwillingness to die to self and live for Christ. Death to self is not an option for Christians; it is a choice that leads to eternal life.

https://www.gotquestions.org/dying-to-self.html

rogerg said:

Yes, dead spiritually. Physically alive.

rogerg said:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

FreeGrace2 · Oct 14, 2021

brightfame52 said:
Its crystal clear that the scriptures teach election, even unconditional election in salvation.

This is a very popular and totally unsubstantiated claim in evangelicalism. There are no verses that mention election in connection with getting saved.

However, in EVERY verse where the purpose of election IS mentioned, it is ALWAYS about service. Never about salvation.

rogerg · Oct 14, 2021

reneweddaybyday said:

The denial that Christ was speaking of, was that they were to deny natural man's faith in themselves and their works for salvation
and instead, to follow Him and His Gospel. Of course, no one can follow Him unless it is given to them of the Father

[Jhn 6:65 KJV]
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

[Luk 9:23, 26 KJV]
23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. ...
26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and [in his] Father's, and of the holy angels.

reneweddaybyday said:

Not exactly sure why you would choose Eph 2:8, as it says, it is "the gift of God." If a gift, then, well, it's a gift, period. The "through faith" must therefore pertain to Christ's faith: Christ's faithfulness brings salvation, ours doesn't. By refusing to accept that Gal 2:16 refers to the faith of Christ (Christ's faith), you make it difficult to perceive the nature of faith: that those so chosen are imputed the faith of Christ(as a gift), and from that, they receive (their) faith in Christ (also a gift) - nothing is needed from them. In other words, from Christ to them, from them to Christ. Interpreted otherwise, Galatians 2:16 makes no sense becoming unrecognizable and illogical.
Through the Holy Spirit, throughout the true believer's lifetimes, their faith in Christ will continue to grow and refine.
I think the mistake you make is to presume faith as being one dimensional, with the obtaining of it solely the responsibility of the individual. Therefore, when you see "faith" mentioned in the Bible, you automatically assume it is of the person, instead of God. In all cases, God should be recognized as the basis of all true faith.

If you believe that Christ's faith isn't identified and described within the Bible, observe just a few of the references. I can provide many more if you'd like:

[Rev 2:13 KJV]
13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

[Rev 19:11 KJV]
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Non-Coincidence · Oct 14, 2021

The Fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom - enlightened by the Holy Spirit many years ago.

Doctrine of Unconditional Election is TRUE in the Divine Power of God, Only God Knows!. But we cannot know What God knows in HIS Mind about this person is unconditional elected. Therefore in our human mind, we can only conclude "Doctrine of Unconditional Election"
is NOT true -Only in our human perspective.

But for the Divine Power of God, "Doctrine of Unconditional Election" is TRUE. Two perspectives, one from the Power of God and one from our human understanding, both are Correct! .
We are confused because we mixed Two Perspectives together to understand and explain.

Blessed be to our Creator of Heavens and Earth, our Savior.

brightfame52 · Oct 15, 2021

@rogerg

Absolutely, men have taken that passage of scripture and places the focus on themselves, which is contrary to the verse.

justpassinthrough · Oct 15, 2021

Icedaisey said:

I see, so you just reject scripture in favor of your personal favorite doctrine.

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9

JLB

FreeGrace2 · Oct 16, 2021

justpassinthrough said:

So, do you believe that Paul gave the jailer a false gospel when his answer to what the jailer MUST DO was "believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved"?

Icedaisey · Oct 16, 2021

justpassinthrough said:

You see what you imagine is there. That has nothing to do with what I've posted as actual scripture and that sustains my point.

reneweddaybyday · Oct 17, 2021

rogerg said:

please read again:

Matthew 16:24-25 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

To take up your cross is to crucify yourself ...

The folks Jesus was talking to understood this point because just before He told them they must deny [themselves], and take up [their] cross, He told them:

Matthew 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

While it may not be evident to you, it was evident to those He spoke to because Peter responded:

Matthew 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

to which the Lord Jesus Christ replied:

Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

the record is the same in the 3 gospels in which it is written - Matt 16:21-25; Mark 8:31-35; Luke 9:22-24.

So when I heed the instruction of the Lord Jesus Christ, there is nothing of "self" which I bring to the equation. However, you claim that the faith God placed within mankind when He created, formed, made mankind ... you claim that faith is somehow a "work" which "is a belief that is produced in-and-of themselves". You are in error concerning this point.

I believe faith is inherent within all mankind from the time God created, formed, made mankind ... that when we hear truth and believe, our faith is strengthened.

However, we can also mis-utilize that God-given faith and believe a lie and this results in "unbelief". Unbelief does not mean a person has no faith. Unbelief results from a person having believed something that is untrue ... and that "unbelief" can be strengthened as shown in Rom 1:18-32.

Believing is proper utilization of God-given faith ... unbelief is mis-utilization of God-given faith.

rogerg said:

not exactly sure why you have such a problem with the faith issue. It is clear from Ephesians 2:9 that faith is not "works":

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Both Rom 4 and Eph 2 make clear that faith is not works. You are in error concerning this issue.

rogerg said:

Please clarify what is the gift in Ephesians 2:8

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Is salvation the gift? is faith the gift?

Back in Post #1337, Post #1341, and Post #1342 we discussed Eph 2:8-9. In Post #1342, you indicated God gave you faith "as a gift". Then you waffled and claimed that "faith" as used throughout Scripture is "Christ's faith".

Please clarify. thank you.

rogerg said:

Please provide the verse which indicates faith is imputed to mankind.

Scripture makes clear that righteousness is imputed (Rom 4). Please provide Scripture which indicates faith is imputed. thank you.

And please do not use Gal 5:22 (fruit of the Spirit faith) or 1 Cor 12:9 (manifestation of the Spirit faith) as I do not believe unbelievers partake of fruit of the Spirit or manifestation of the Spirit. Only those who are born again are able to partake of Gal 5:22 and 1 Cor 12:9.

rogerg said:

Please read with comprehension. I have maintained that faith has been given by God to all mankind.

I think the mistake you make is that you have a preconceived notion as to what others believe and instead of reading with comprehension what people have written concerning their understanding, you project your preconceived notion. In other words, you do not "hear" what people have indicated through their writing.

rogerg said:

Again, when God formed, made, created mankind, faith was part of the package ... just as intellect, emotions, senses, etc., etc. All is of God. When we mis-utilize that which God has given, that is "self". When we deny self, and take up our cross, "self" does not get in the way. We crucify self and the faith which God gave to all mankind is utilized just as God intended. All is of God.

Please quit projecting onto me that which you have devised in your own mind as to what I read when I "see "faith" mentioned in the Bible" and that I "automatically assume it is of the person, instead of God".

How many times do I have to tell you that faith is "of God" before you understand that I believe faith is "of God"???

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