Doctrine of Unconditional Election

Look at the example shown in Genesis 4.

I know there's not much in Scripture relating to Abel and his sacrifice. However, God does provide enough information to understand that Abel offered in faith and Cain did not offer in faith.

in Hebrews 11:4 we read

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.


We know from Scripture that faith by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (Rom 10:17).

In order for Abel to offer a more excellent sacrifice by faith, he had to have heard the Word of God.

By the same token, Cain had to have heard the same Word of God. However, Cain did not offer by faith. Cain offered through his own means. Cain was self-willed (prideful) and did not submit himself to the Will of God.

And in Gen 4:7, God gave further instruction to Cain in order for Cain to be accepted and Cain still suppressed the truth in unrighteousness.

God spoke directly to Cain (Gen 4:6) and Cain still resisted. Then he went and murdered Abel.

We know Cain could hear God because he spoke to God (Gen 4:13-14) and, thereafter, Cain left God (Gen 4:16).

I believe God deals (and has dealt in the past) with unbelievers in the same manner He dealt with Cain. We know God dealt with pharaoh in the same manner (although at the point, God used a spokesperson (Moses)).

In our day and time, God uses believers to make His Word known – 1 Cor 1:21 it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.




Yes, faith is not "against Christ". Faith will always lead to Christ.

However, we get in our own way when we suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18). It's like putting a kink in the hose. We (our pride) get between faith and the Lord Jesus Christ.

We have to die to self (which is difficult even for believers to do at times, much less unbelievers).

Our will is to be submitted to God's Will. But our pride gets in the way … the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, the pride of life. That's what happened to Eve. satan lied to her and she saw that the tree was good (lust of the eyes), a tree to be desired (lust of the flesh) to make one wise (pride of life).




yeah, I'm kinda weird in that regard.




Not true. I understand what you've posted.




Then you do not believe Romans 4:2-5 where God clearly indicates that faith is not works:

Romans 4:

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


The one who "worketh not" is the one who "believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly" and his/her faith is "counted for righteousness"




sad that you think dying to self is somehow something "permitted from us for it". In fact, dying to self is exactly what you describe because a dead person is nothing and has nothing to contribute.

In that context it‘s referring to obeying the Gospel.

The one who does not believe will not obey, because he doesn’t believe.



He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36 NASB

" Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."
Clearly referring to atheists. Because God calls whom He will to Salvation.


The Christian is indwelt by God's Holy Spirit the moment we,they, accept Christ. Because God called us to receive His free irrevocable gift of faith and Salvation due to his grace.
Any teaching to the contrary comes against that fact and is false the moment it is thought or given attention.

Ours is Eternal Salvation. Not a conditional reprieve.


The Indwelt Once Sealed Eternally Sealed Christian is not insecure. 😇 We are Eternally in Christ. And He is eternally in us.

https://eternalsecurity.info/sealed-by-the-holy-spirit/

I didn't really want to reply further but felt I should add the following to the above

Not sure what exactly what you meant by dying to self or what your point was, but if you're saying that is something we should do, I disagree. Before becoming born-again we are all already dead spiritually- hence the doctrine of becoming born-again.
For those to whom it is given, salvation is fully a gift that is solely by, and through, God's grace, and nothing else.

Do you ever get the feeling that there is a predisposition in this world where a collection of misogynist inclined person's take comfort in holding to the faith sometimes referred to as, "I Am" a groveling clump of dirt?

As in, I'm not worthy, I'm not secure in Christ, I have to obey, obey, obey, which is the same as, work, work, work, or else one little slip up and I'm back to being damned to hell again because I'm still a sinner who sins and worthy of no thing good.

Which can be why some think the purpose of the Great Tribulation is to put the church through hell on earth. To test our metal and see if we will make it through and thus deserve heaven.👀

It is true. They really can make that stuff up.And abrogate the scriptures in the process. Just to defend what they as individuals find themselves worthy of.

Which can explain why those type people, that groveling clump of dirt sect, can't understand the actual Gospel as written.

Maybe that's the meaning behind Paul's observation, for now we see through a glass, darkly.

Because those clumps of misogynistic dirt and the unrepentant sinners gaze toward the truth is obscured because there is no light of Holy Spirit shining from within them. That they would otherwise then realize the shadows that make for the illusion they think is reality are dissipated. And the fear those dark wraiths of falsity generated vanquished by the Son.

In short, were wasting our time trying to reach those God does not already know.
And we know who they are because they cannot see or hear the truth of God in Christ. They can only insist it isn't there to be read as clearly as God's Saints perceive it to be. Because God wills they do not see, that they may understand. Nor hear, so as to come to the knowledge of His truth.

Matthew 13, Mark 4.
Jesus message is eternal. What was then, is now centuries later .

Oh absolutely. They just can't accept that God's mercy and grace is sufficient.

Agreed. Because they don't comprehend what that all means. They are of the world and as such read through the eyes and consciousness of the world. Where nothing is truly free, everything has a price, and eternal translates to conditional.

Seriously, have you ever just, and without imagining your response as you read, taken in what some people write as they defend what they supposedly believe the Bible is saying?
If they're sincere, that's sad. But, the sad part is overcome by it being evidence the scriptures will always be proven true no matter what era it is, what century, etc...

Then there's always room for "that other". Which is not actually sincere and yet wrong headed.
Years ago I worked with an atheist. Everyone knew he was an atheist. From his "NO GOD" plate on the front bumper of his car, to his occasional remarks when on break.
This was before I bought a PC and instead used my phone to get online when necessary.

This guy though used his phone and home PC to troll religious forums. Any religious forum. It was his hobby. He'd even do this on break at work. He'd laugh and share his screen around the table so we could see his latest post to a Muslim, or a Messianic, etc....
He loved it. Why? I asked him once. Then I never sat near him again.
He enjoyed imagining the "brain bleed" his remarks would give to that Jew, Christian, Muslim, Messianic, when he'd hold to a completely contrived perspective that was blatantly counter to that person's particular faith. Thing about that is, he'd research to find out what they each held in faith in order to manufacture his ridiculous counter.
He loved it!

Every now and then I'll read something when I'm browsing about in any Christian discussion forum, particularly as was his favorite spot in our communities, the Bible forums, and read something that reminds me of him. I think to myself, Todd, is that you? But I never ask.
Largely because I'm thinking he just might one day be on a forum and say, yes!

And what is surprising is that many (at least superficially) seem to agree at some level that works for salvation is in violation of the Bible's message, and yet, immediately add a "but" of one kind or another to it, not realizing or caring they're transgressing the doctrine of grace. They are just unable or unwilling (or maybe both) to grasp that Christ alone is Savior, and they are not.

God needs our help to save us.
A far more common errant belief than we'd think actually.

1 Corinthians 2:11-13
11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.
13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual

rogerg said:

Not sure what exactly what you meant by dying to self or what your point was, but if you're saying that is something we should do, I disagree.

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Perhaps the words of the Lord Jesus Christ will help you understand:

Matthew 16:24-25 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

rogerg said:

Before becoming born-again we are all already dead spiritually

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Yes, dead spiritually. Physically alive.

rogerg said:

For those to whom it is given, salvation is fully a gift that is solely by, and through, God's grace, and nothing else.

Click to expand...

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

brightfame52 said:
Its crystal clear that the scriptures teach election, even unconditional election in salvation.

This is a very popular and totally unsubstantiated claim in evangelicalism. There are no verses that mention election in connection with getting saved.

However, in EVERY verse where the purpose of election IS mentioned, it is ALWAYS about service. Never about salvation.

The denial that Christ was speaking of, was that they were to deny natural man's faith in themselves and their works for salvation
and instead, to follow Him and His Gospel. Of course, no one can follow Him unless it is given to them of the Father

[Jhn 6:65 KJV]
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

[Luk 9:23, 26 KJV]
23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. ...
26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and [in his] Father's, and of the holy angels.

Not exactly sure why you would choose Eph 2:8, as it says, it is "the gift of God." If a gift, then, well, it's a gift, period. The "through faith" must therefore pertain to Christ's faith: Christ's faithfulness brings salvation, ours doesn't. By refusing to accept that Gal 2:16 refers to the faith of Christ (Christ's faith), you make it difficult to perceive the nature of faith: that those so chosen are imputed the faith of Christ(as a gift), and from that, they receive (their) faith in Christ (also a gift) - nothing is needed from them. In other words, from Christ to them, from them to Christ. Interpreted otherwise, Galatians 2:16 makes no sense becoming unrecognizable and illogical.
Through the Holy Spirit, throughout the true believer's lifetimes, their faith in Christ will continue to grow and refine.
I think the mistake you make is to presume faith as being one dimensional, with the obtaining of it solely the responsibility of the individual. Therefore, when you see "faith" mentioned in the Bible, you automatically assume it is of the person, instead of God. In all cases, God should be recognized as the basis of all true faith.

If you believe that Christ's faith isn't identified and described within the Bible, observe just a few of the references. I can provide many more if you'd like:

[Rev 2:13 KJV]
13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

[Rev 19:11 KJV]
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

The Fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom - enlightened by the Holy Spirit many years ago.

Doctrine of Unconditional Election is TRUE in the Divine Power of God, Only God Knows!. But we cannot know What God knows in HIS Mind about this person is unconditional elected. Therefore in our human mind, we can only conclude "Doctrine of Unconditional Election"
is NOT true -Only in our human perspective.

But for the Divine Power of God, "Doctrine of Unconditional Election" is TRUE. Two perspectives, one from the Power of God and one from our human understanding, both are Correct! .
We are confused because we mixed Two Perspectives together to understand and explain.

Blessed be to our Creator of Heavens and Earth, our Savior.

@rogerg

Absolutely, men have taken that passage of scripture and places the focus on themselves, which is contrary to the verse.

I see, so you just reject scripture in favor of your personal favorite doctrine.



And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9






JLB

So, do you believe that Paul gave the jailer a false gospel when his answer to what the jailer MUST DO was "believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved"?

You see what you imagine is there. That has nothing to do with what I've posted as actual scripture and that sustains my point.