DECEMBER 25?

[LaurenTM]

when people lift a passage, from an epistle, out of context, and use if for a proof text, with no supporting Scripture, it is just wrong.

Listen. Think.
God used a whole chapter in Leviticus to define HIS Holy Days.
Do you really think He would allow Paul to wipe that out with a letter written to a group of believers in Rome?
Not a chance.

People WANT to do the Dec25 ritual. They will fight to keep it. It is just not Biblical, and in my opinion, not acceptable.

and then He had Paul tell us not to let anyone judge us on holy days or other religous matters

but of course, YOUR group thinks Paul is not really an apostle

gee...that sure is convenient

people want to celebrate the birth of their Savior on the 25th Mike

YOU want to make a ritual out of law observing and making yourself feel like a good Israelite who knows better than Paul

you began your performance here with a thread on the 4th commandment and it seems to be the biggest thing Christians do wrong in YOUR opinion

that, says it all IMO

 

[LaurenTM]

God celebrated Christ's birth in some pretty spectacular ways .

-JGIG

wow!

you have really brought up something we have overlooked here!

thousands of angels singing!

that about gives me goosebumps!

so glad you brought this up!!

 

[JGIG]

You are right, but He didn't wait until 25December to do it

Since no one knows the exact date that Christ was born, neither can Dec. 25th be ruled out .

Not that it matters, because we are celebrating the Birth of Christ, not the date, right?

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Excellent hypothetical question.

Sadly, I think the majority of Christianity would keep celebrating on the 25th, which would show just how ingrained the traditions of man are in the Body.

So what if they did?

It's the Birth of Christ that's being celebrated, not a day that's being observed, right?

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

I know some of what you're up against. Thankfully, our Creator always makes a way for us when we are doing our best to do His will. For me, the business part wasn't as hard to navigate as the family traditions..and with young grandchildren. It was about 4 years ago, He opened my eyes to the truth about Dec. 25. Carefully, truthfully, I told my grown children and let them decide how to proceed without me. Worst of it, dissappointing them. As for anything else I've never looked back. I hope in time they realize following Messiah is not all fun and games. It's serious. It was about time I took it serious.

The history of that day is most disturbing, and I felt such remorse for not knowing about it sooner, but I was completely ignorant in that regard. I was broken hearted, truly. It's been said, "A single truth dispells a thousand lies", and I couldn't agree more. The adversary is hiding Almighty behind a mountain of lies. Christmas replaces the appointments with YHVH, and makes a mockery of His instructions..like, it doesn't matter all that much, really, how we decide to worship Him because He knows our heart. Well, He has said plainly how He wants to be worshiped and warns us not to do worship as pagans do and say we're doing it for Him. Imagine if your spouse celebrated your birthday on their ex-girl/boyfriend's birthday, and you told them it made you feel terrible, and they laughed and said, what does it matter? Yet without fail, year after year, they kept on doing it? Messiah said regarding tradition and doing the Father's will~you cannot do both.

I've no right to judge anybody who does christmas, and I don't. I think we're all decieved in some way. Only He can open eyes and ears, and I reckon it's all in His hands. I pray for us all, that we be not decieved.

Excellent analogy and very appropriate, and one that I think should give us all pause when looking at different facets of our relationship with God.

Good to see you!

First of all, it has not been established that December 25 is a pagan holiday. Perhaps you are the ones who have been lied to.

Second of all, our relationship with God does not depend on whether or not we celebrate the Birth of Christ.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Sadly though, this isn't a Scriptural teaching, nor is there any evidence of God ever doing this. In fact, God has extremely strict standards of what to do when encountering pagan gods and worship of them.

Well it's a good thing we're not encountering any pagan gods or worshipping them, then!

​

-JGIG

 

[LaurenTM]

oh my lands...how much longer?

 

[JGIG]

Correct. There is no shortage of reference to idolatrous "high places", "incense altars", asherah, molten images, etc. and no instance where God commanded Hebrews to simply co-opt them into Temple (or Tabernacle) worship. Idols were always to be destroyed.

Yet pagan worship and Hebrew Temple worship have many items in common. Repeating from an earlier post you may not have seen, here are some things that I can think of just off the top of my head that pagan/false god worship and Israel had/have in common:

• prayer
• fasting
• sacrifices
• feasts
• appointed days
• new moons
• anointing
• priesthood
• temple
• temple implements
• altars
• fire
• water
• cleansing rituals
• priestly garments
• spiritual songs
• spiritual dance
• alteration of the body (mutilation/circumcision)
• dietary laws

It is not so much what is used, but who/Who you worship/serve that God is concerned with.

God obviously permitted things that pagans were already practicing to be used in worship to Him.

If not, how do you explain the above list?

Paul's writings are Holy Scripture. If they SEEM to conflict with OT passages (also Holy Scripture) then we have not fully understood the relative scope and meaning of both. Such apparent conflicts, and their careful resolution, are maybe the best way of learning biblical truth.

There are no conflicts, I agree! Paul shows how the Law points to Christ, then how when we come into Christ we die to the Law. Then we live again in Christ (see Romans 7, Gal. 2).

No conflict, no contradiction, just an explanation about who we are in Christ, His Work, and what that means!

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

oh my lands...how much longer?

LOL, no really, still laughing!!!

 

[LaurenTM]

LOL, no really, still laughing!!!

worth a thousand words

 

[Connock]

I have not read either book but I do believe that it is very likely that Jesus was born during one of the late summer or early fall festivals, which are God's timetable. This looks like an interesting page: Chapter 5: The Time of Jesus' Birth

Thank you Magenta, it is interesting (and the author, unlike most, knows how the Hebrew calendar functioned). It is very similar to Larsen's Star theory.

 

[RickyZ]

In 1934 on the date of my birth, Hitler and Moussolini met and became allies. I guess if I have cake that day I'm celebrating the start of the holocaust and ww2. Gee mom, better turn the oven off.

 

[JaumeJ]

Some still won't get it! God bless you.

In 1934 on the date of my birth, Hitler and Moussolini met and became allies. I guess if I have cake that day I'm celebrating the start of the holocaust and ww2. Gee mom, better turn the oven off.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

In 1934 on the date of my birth, Hitler and Moussolini met and became allies. I guess if I have cake that day I'm celebrating the start of the holocaust and ww2. Gee mom, better turn the oven off.

Are you lying about your age because that will make you 82?

 

[disciplemike]

Let's see. People will celebrate Dec25, even though we are not told to do so in Scripture, and ignore the Holy Days that God declared in Scripture.
Do you see something wrong with this?

 

[JaumeJ]

We thank the Father for the Son many times every day. I suppose we are thanking Him for the Son's birth and His death and His resurrection.

We do this without be told to do so. Should we stop?

 

[disciplemike]

Step away from the pagan holy days.
Try God's holy days.
I had to wake up. Others need to wake up.
Not that I know everything, but if your "church" teaches things that are not in Scripture, have the courage to ask "why?".

 

[JGIG]

Let's see. People will celebrate Dec25, even though we are not told to do so in Scripture, and ignore the Holy Days that God declared in Scripture.
Do you see something wrong with this?

But we're not observing the day, we're celebrating the Birth of Christ.

Seems like I keep typing that and you keep not reading that.

You're FAR more fixated on December 25th than we are.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

We thank the Father for the Son many times every day. I suppose we are thanking Him for the Son's birth and His death and His resurrection.

We do this without be told to do so. Should we stop?

Step away from the pagan holy days.
Try God's holy days.
I had to wake up. Others need to wake up.
Not that I know everything, but if your "church" teaches things that are not in Scripture, have the courage to ask "why?".

Pagans thank God for His Son's birth, death, and resurrection?!

Who knew?!

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

that may be a bit dramatic for what I said.
I am glad you have read the Scriptures, but clearly we don't agree.

Paul's letter is a letter. We don't know the whole story.
In my opinion, he is referring to which days are best for fasting. Some of the Jewish leaders taught that it is best to fast on Monday and Thursday. Others said it didn't matter which day you fast. This is what I believe Paul is talking about - food.

With that said, I stand by what I posted.
If God declares certain days to be holy, Paul can't wipe that out with a letter.
Paul isn't doing any such thing. This is what our easy grace doctrine has tried to teach us, but it is not true.

That's right, disciplemike, and everyone's got one .

Here's a question for you: Paul had written in Chapter 7 of the letter to the Romans that those in Christ are dead to the Law. With that for context, Romans 14 is not talking about which days are best for fasting, but the issue that we on this forum discuss all the time: Law or Grace. The weaker brothers abide by the Law, and the more mature among us are to show them Grace in disputable matters!

​

But seriously, if you were to come into our home as our guest, I would take care to not serve you foods you consider to be unclean, nor do I have a problem with you doing as your conscience dictates concerning holy days/celebrations.

NOTE: When you get really serious about keeping God's Law as it was written, it will then do its job and lead you to Christ and His Grace.

Where you cross the line is when you pose flawed questions designed to lead other believers to coming back under a law of yours and other's own creation (NOT God's Law as it is written). That is out of bounds.

You've showed your hand by posting 119 Ministries and Michael Rood resources, and I'm guessing that if he wasn't in prison for financial fraud (conning old folks out of their retirement incomes while he was teaching Torah to folks like you), you'd try to get some Jim Staley stuff posted here, too. I'm VERY WELL VERSED in what they all teach, along with guys like Monte Judah, Avi Ben Mordechai, Rico Cortes, Brad Scott, and several others. I've done my due diligence and disagree with what they teach - fully informed and understanding what they teach. It may be a good idea for you to do some research into where their teachings come from.

And they ALL teach a watered-down law of their own creation.

Again, as I've said many times before: start trying to keep the Law as God gave it, and it will do its job and lead you to Christ and Grace. Give it a go! And when you come to the end of yourself, go and re-read Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians, Hebrews . . . and you will see God's Grace speaking to you all over the place, and the Law's purpose in you will have done its job.

________________________


This has been a good thread! You've stated your case (kind of, but we still have not seen any actual proof for your assertions) and those who take joy in celebrating the Birth of Christ have stated their cases.

I think it's been very enlightening for the readers here at the BDF !

-JGIG