If Women Can't Have Authority Over Men in the Church, Why Are They Expected to Teach in School?

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Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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I know because the Bible tell us that they were out of line. I'm sure you'll find that in your Bible.
Which book is that in? Additions (according) to Nehemiah?

There is nothing in the Bible... anywhere... that specifically excludes women from being elders.
 

Tinkerbell725

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2014
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Philippines Age 40
I found this link. You tell me which church's Biblical qualifications are the right ones.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_by_number_of_members

Or perhaps the church is a spiritual body of believers where Christ is the Head.

It’s wrong to believe that following rules in the Bible or according to a denominational group will give us life, that these written rules and regulations will bring us Christ. That’s desertion of the truth. The Bible is a witness of Jesus Christ. It’s a written testimony of many different men hearing from God. Jesus said in John 5:39, "You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me." The Jews were wrong in thinking that the scriptures could give them life. So are we if we believe the same. The scriptures testify of Jesus Christ, but they cannot give us life.

Jesus said, "Follow Me!" We need the anointing of the Holy Spirit to follow God, the very presence of Christ in us to have life in Him.

If you really want to know what "qualifications" to live by, ask God. He's faithful to answer.
The right qualifications are those from churches who make the Bible their final authority.

I thought the Scriptures was Jesus Himself. The Jews search the Scriptures but don't believe in Jesus. Christians believe in Jesus and they search the Scriptures because we are commanded to study the Scriptures. And those qualifications are given to Christians not to the Jews.


John 1:1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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The right qualifications are those from churches who make the Bible their final authority.

I thought the Scriptures was Jesus Himself. The Jews search the Scriptures but don't believe in Jesus. Christians believe in Jesus and they search the Scriptures because we are commanded to study the Scriptures. And those qualifications are given to Christians not to the Jews.


John 1:1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
People (or organizations) can make the Bible their final authority and still disagree on the right way to interpret it.

The scriptures are not Jesus. The scriptures are not eternal, are not God, weren't born of a virgin, didn't die on a cross, weren't resurrected three days later, and aren't coming again in glory to judge the living and the dead.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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I know because the Bible tell us that they were out of line. I'm sure you'll find that in your Bible.
Nope cant find it anywhere, care to explain.

Are you talking about the elders. You seem to be assuming things without really thinking it through.

Also Paul was speaking in the context of women keeping silence in church i.e waiting their turn. Why does he mention adam first, eve second in the order they were created?

He would permit a woman to speak, when she got home to ask her husband it seems. They key thing is silence.

Do we know how big these congregations were and how noisy the early church was.
Have you ever taught a class. Do you speak when the teacher is speaking? . No. You wait your turn and dont interrupt. Why was Mary praised by Jesus and not Martha who was complainng, probably loudly. mary was listening.

As for elders, they are supoosed to be Of righteous character. If the elders decide to ordain a woman, there would be good reason. While you may ask why, I ask WHY NOT. Its like people who dont believe women can be doctors or engineers, or write books, or do anything with her God given intelligence.
Yep still coming upon this prejudice, centuries later.
 

Brandon123

Active member
May 15, 2019
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Hello,

I've seen the debate over whether or not women can be pastors/lead in the church many times, and have gone through many Bible studies in which this is discussed and examined. I also grew up in a church that did NOT believe women could hold positions of authority, unless it was as a deaconess to younger women in the church.

This is NOT meant to be a debate over whether women can be pastors at all.

Rather, I once read a post that addressed something that really sparked my interest, seeing as I grew up in Christian schools.

* If women are not allowed to speak or be leaders/teachers in the church, why are women relied on to teach Sunday School, vacation Bible school, and in Christian schools and colleges (such as what I grew up in)?

* Why do many of these tasks (geared toward children and young adults) seem to automatically be deligated as "women's work"? And yet, I would guess most parents in the churches I grew up in would not bring their kids to Sunday School if the entire Sunday School staff was all men.

I am certainly NOT saying ANYTHING against men who work in ministries that serve children--I'm just saying that when I've asked some parents how they would feel about dropping their kids off with an all-male Sunday School/children/teen church staff, they're don't seem to be entirely comfortable with the idea. But maybe this is only in the churches I've been in?

I have to wonder why it's so often thought that it's perfectly fine (even expected, and a spiritual duty) for women to teach and lead children, and young adults, but not full-grown adults? (I don't meant this as a debate or a criticism, but as an honest question.)

* Does that mean that once her students turn 18 (or 21, or whatever age is defined as being an "adult"), any spiritual leadership and authority she had over them the day before their "adulthood" birthday is now null and void, and does a male studen now automatically have spiritual authority over her, even if she's twice his age?

* If so, why are women allowed to teach at Christian colleges?

* And if a woman loses any spiritual authority over a man when he comes of age, what is being taught in churches to reinforce this? Are young men told that they now have spiritual leadership and authority over the women in the church once they turn that age?

* Will the men of the church tell their wives that they must follow and submit to the spiritual lead of any 18-year-old (or whatever the age of adulthood is seen as) on the ministry staff?

* Why is this topic never addressed whenever it's said that women can't hold positions of spiritual leadership in the church?

I would really like to see this discussed, as it always seemed to be glossed over.

Is a woman allowed to teach your male child/relative, but does he then have spiritual authority over her in the church once he becomes an adult?
this may seem strange and is a little off subject but in some cases I think it’s a matter of preference...I have experienced being “pastored “ by women and I have experienced Gods comfort and love in a big way...but my preference in church is to have a male pastor. In the Bible God expresses himself primarily as a father...and A fathers responsibility is to lead his house...so it seems natural to me that a pastor of a congregation would be a male figure since Gods expression of himself is as a father. In my opinion it has nothing to do with qualification as far as women are concerned....I think in my personal life women have been brilliant and capable...more so than men ... and I’ve learned more about love and kindness from them than men...but to me it still comes down to God being our father ... as a guy I need a male for me to learn to relate to and grow into the man I’m called to be...moms are awesome..but they are moms not dads...
 
Mar 21, 2019
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You raise an interesting question, but then why does a man turn to pornography, what need does that fufil.
I think for every good thing, Satan creates counterfeits that are evil. God creates men with a desire for marriage and family. This can be used for seeking out a wife and producing a family, or for adulterous relationships and pornography. Women are created with skills and abilities. They can use these skills and abilities to support their own families, or use them to obtain glory and comfort for themselves.

Some Men would have been looking at pornogprahy even before they married, why would any sane person sauggest that a wife is meant to satsify a mans perverse lust?
I remember a lady posting on another christian forum how she did stay at home and her husband still was into pornography and wanted her to participate in his perversion. She thought that she was meant to act pornographically for him. And he got into homosexuality and all other perversions too.

God showed her this was wrong!
Yes. That does sound perverse.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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Nope cant find it anywhere, care to explain.
Just like ignorance of the law is no excuse, ignorance of the Scriptures is no excuse. It would be better for you to go back and search the Scriptures for yourself, rather than anyone giving you the passages which are relevant.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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There is nothing in the Bible... anywhere... that specifically excludes women from being elders.
Elders (presbyters) were the pastors and teachers within the apostolic churches, as well as the overseers (bishops) with authority in the churches. THEY WERE EXCLUSIVELY MEN and this passage specifically excludes women:

1 TIMOTHY 2 (NO WOMEN TO TEACH OR HAVE AUTHORITY IN THE CHURCHES)
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.


The qualifications for a pastor/elder/bishop also specifically exclude women:

1 TIMOTHY 3 (ONLY "HE" IN THIS PASSAGE)
1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.



So for anyone to claim that the Bible does not exclude women from being elders (pastor/elder/bishops) is to blatantly lie and contradict Scripture.
 

Dino246

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Jun 30, 2015
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Elders (presbyters) were the pastors and teachers within the apostolic churches, as well as the overseers (bishops) with authority in the churches. THEY WERE EXCLUSIVELY MEN and this passage specifically excludes women:

1 TIMOTHY 2 (NO WOMEN TO TEACH OR HAVE AUTHORITY IN THE CHURCHES)
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.


The qualifications for a pastor/elder/bishop also specifically exclude women:

1 TIMOTHY 3 (ONLY "HE" IN THIS PASSAGE)
1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.



So for anyone to claim that the Bible does not exclude women from being elders (pastor/elder/bishops) is to blatantly lie and contradict Scripture.
You either didn't pay attention to my words, "specifically exclude," or you didn't understand them. There isn't a single statement in either of those passages that says anything like "women may not be elders or pastors."

Neither 1 Timothy 2:11 nor 2:12 has "women", both have the singular "woman". There is plenty of evidence to support the idea that Paul was writing about one specific female rather than women in general.

You have ignored the information provided in previous threads regarding the absence of male pronouns in the Greek of 1 Timothy 3. Use your brain and do your homework instead of calling others liars.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
You either didn't pay attention to my words, "specifically exclude," or you didn't understand them. There isn't a single statement in either of those passages that says anything like "women may not be elders or pastors."

Neither 1 Timothy 2:11 nor 2:12 has "women", both have the singular "woman". There is plenty of evidence to support the idea that Paul was writing about one specific female rather than women in general.

You have ignored the information provided in previous threads regarding the absence of male pronouns in the Greek of 1 Timothy 3. Use your brain and do your homework instead of calling others liars.
I like your tenacity!! :)
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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You either didn't pay attention to my words, "specifically exclude," or you didn't understand them. There isn't a single statement in either of those passages that says anything like "women may not be elders or pastors."
So you choose to dodge the meaning of Scriptures by looking for "explicit" statements????

Since women are commanded to be silent in the churches EXPLICITLY that in itself REFUTES all the nonsense you wish to promote.
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. (1 Cor 14:34)
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. (1 Tim 2:11)
 

tourist

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Mar 13, 2014
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So you choose to dodge the meaning of Scriptures by looking for "explicit" statements????

Since women are commanded to be silent in the churches EXPLICITLY that in itself REFUTES all the nonsense you wish to promote.
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. (1 Cor 14:34)
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. (1 Tim 2:11)
Thought we are no longer under the law?
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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Thought we are no longer under the law?
Its talking about the law of moses..or marriage laws.
Is it lawful for a wife to speak before her husband does. Well you need to search scriptures to see if this is so. Note it is Paul saying its not permitted, but there will be exceptions to this rule. Because that same Paul will give permission at other times and its shown he does. Its just about order really.

When Paul was saying let YOUR women be silent in churches, he was speaking to the husbands. Actually he was inferring to the husbands to teach and lead their wives and perhap even shoosh them for being noisy, and to listen!

Why the admonishing was needed. Well the husbands it seems werent stepping up in teaching their wives how to behave in church.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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So you choose to dodge the meaning of Scriptures by looking for "explicit" statements????

Since women are commanded to be silent in the churches EXPLICITLY that in itself REFUTES all the nonsense you wish to promote.
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. (1 Cor 14:34)
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. (1 Tim 2:11)
So you're admitting that there are no such explicit statements... good.

I'm not dodging anything. Rather, I'm incorporating both sound reasoning and context. You're free to disagree.

The Law does not say that women are to be silent or in submission... anywhere.
 

Endoscopy

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Oct 13, 2017
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I suggest people read the following defining qualifications for being elders and deacons. In some translations gender of a deacon is neutral. Also in the early church there were deaconesses.

1 Timothy 3 New International Version (NIV)
Qualifications for Overseers and Deacons
1 Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.
8 In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.
11 In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.
12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13 Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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Thought we are no longer under the law?
Since it is Paul who says that we are no longer under the Law, it should be obvious that he is NOT referring to the Old Covenant laws, but simply to the Torah, and more particularly to the book of Genesis (before the Law was given).

And even if he were referring to the Law of Moses, Christians are still subject to the Ten Commandments (as written in the Law of Christ) plus four of the laws of Moses. But Paul -- writing by divine inspiration to Christians says this: Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak. That is enough to refute the nonsense that woman may be elders.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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So you're admitting that there are no such explicit statements... good.
No I am simply pointing out that you are a DODGER.

Scripture does not have to always give explicit statements couched in modern terminology as you expect. We have shallow Christians today always claiming that "The Bible does not say this" and "the Bible does not say that" when all they are looking for is an excuse to avoid plain Bible teaching.

The very fact that Paul excluded mentioning women when giving the qualifications of elder/bishops should have been sufficient. But obviously it is never sufficient for dodgers.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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No I am simply pointing out that you are a DODGER.

Scripture does not have to always give explicit statements couched in modern terminology as you expect. We have shallow Christians today always claiming that "The Bible does not say this" and "the Bible does not say that" when all they are looking for is an excuse to avoid plain Bible teaching.

The very fact that Paul excluded mentioning women when giving the qualifications of elder/bishops should have been sufficient. But obviously it is never sufficient for dodgers.
Your argument is rooted in an ad hominem attack and as such has neither relevance nor validity.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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No I am simply pointing out that you are a DODGER.

Scripture does not have to always give explicit statements couched in modern terminology as you expect. We have shallow Christians today always claiming that "The Bible does not say this" and "the Bible does not say that" when all they are looking for is an excuse to avoid plain Bible teaching.

The very fact that Paul excluded mentioning women when giving the qualifications of elder/bishops should have been sufficient. But obviously it is never sufficient for dodgers.
He didn’t exclude mentioning women. He did so quite clearly in 1Tim 3:11 and in Titus 2:3-5. In both passages Paul is giving qualifications for women, not against them.