If Women Can't Have Authority Over Men in the Church, Why Are They Expected to Teach in School?
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The right qualifications are those from churches who make the Bible their final authority.
I thought the Scriptures was Jesus Himself. The Jews search the Scriptures but don't believe in Jesus. Christians believe in Jesus and they search the Scriptures because we are commanded to study the Scriptures. And those qualifications are given to Christians not to the Jews.
John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
I thought the Scriptures was Jesus Himself. The Jews search the Scriptures but don't believe in Jesus. Christians believe in Jesus and they search the Scriptures because we are commanded to study the Scriptures. And those qualifications are given to Christians not to the Jews.
John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
People (or organizations) can make the Bible their final authority and still disagree on the right way to interpret it.
The scriptures are not Jesus. The scriptures are not eternal, are not God, weren't born of a virgin, didn't die on a cross, weren't resurrected three days later, and aren't coming again in glory to judge the living and the dead.
The scriptures are not Jesus. The scriptures are not eternal, are not God, weren't born of a virgin, didn't die on a cross, weren't resurrected three days later, and aren't coming again in glory to judge the living and the dead.
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Nope cant find it anywhere, care to explain.
Are you talking about the elders. You seem to be assuming things without really thinking it through.
Also Paul was speaking in the context of women keeping silence in church i.e waiting their turn. Why does he mention adam first, eve second in the order they were created?
He would permit a woman to speak, when she got home to ask her husband it seems. They key thing is silence.
Do we know how big these congregations were and how noisy the early church was.
Have you ever taught a class. Do you speak when the teacher is speaking? . No. You wait your turn and dont interrupt. Why was Mary praised by Jesus and not Martha who was complainng, probably loudly. mary was listening.
As for elders, they are supoosed to be Of righteous character. If the elders decide to ordain a woman, there would be good reason. While you may ask why, I ask WHY NOT. Its like people who dont believe women can be doctors or engineers, or write books, or do anything with her God given intelligence.
Yep still coming upon this prejudice, centuries later.
Are you talking about the elders. You seem to be assuming things without really thinking it through.
Also Paul was speaking in the context of women keeping silence in church i.e waiting their turn. Why does he mention adam first, eve second in the order they were created?
He would permit a woman to speak, when she got home to ask her husband it seems. They key thing is silence.
Do we know how big these congregations were and how noisy the early church was.
Have you ever taught a class. Do you speak when the teacher is speaking? . No. You wait your turn and dont interrupt. Why was Mary praised by Jesus and not Martha who was complainng, probably loudly. mary was listening.
As for elders, they are supoosed to be Of righteous character. If the elders decide to ordain a woman, there would be good reason. While you may ask why, I ask WHY NOT. Its like people who dont believe women can be doctors or engineers, or write books, or do anything with her God given intelligence.
Yep still coming upon this prejudice, centuries later.
this may seem strange and is a little off subject but in some cases I think it’s a matter of preference...I have experienced being “pastored “ by women and I have experienced Gods comfort and love in a big way...but my preference in church is to have a male pastor. In the Bible God expresses himself primarily as a father...and A fathers responsibility is to lead his house...so it seems natural to me that a pastor of a congregation would be a male figure since Gods expression of himself is as a father. In my opinion it has nothing to do with qualification as far as women are concerned....I think in my personal life women have been brilliant and capable...more so than men ... and I’ve learned more about love and kindness from them than men...but to me it still comes down to God being our father ... as a guy I need a male for me to learn to relate to and grow into the man I’m called to be...moms are awesome..but they are moms not dads...
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I think for every good thing, Satan creates counterfeits that are evil. God creates men with a desire for marriage and family. This can be used for seeking out a wife and producing a family, or for adulterous relationships and pornography. Women are created with skills and abilities. They can use these skills and abilities to support their own families, or use them to obtain glory and comfort for themselves.
Yes. That does sound perverse.
Yes. That does sound perverse.
Elders (presbyters) were the pastors and teachers within the apostolic churches, as well as the overseers (bishops) with authority in the churches. THEY WERE EXCLUSIVELY MEN and this passage specifically excludes women:
1 TIMOTHY 2 (NO WOMEN TO TEACH OR HAVE AUTHORITY IN THE CHURCHES)
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
The qualifications for a pastor/elder/bishop also specifically exclude women:
1 TIMOTHY 3 (ONLY "HE" IN THIS PASSAGE)
1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
So for anyone to claim that the Bible does not exclude women from being elders (pastor/elder/bishops) is to blatantly lie and contradict Scripture.
1 TIMOTHY 2 (NO WOMEN TO TEACH OR HAVE AUTHORITY IN THE CHURCHES)
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
The qualifications for a pastor/elder/bishop also specifically exclude women:
1 TIMOTHY 3 (ONLY "HE" IN THIS PASSAGE)
1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
So for anyone to claim that the Bible does not exclude women from being elders (pastor/elder/bishops) is to blatantly lie and contradict Scripture.
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You either didn't pay attention to my words, "specifically exclude," or you didn't understand them. There isn't a single statement in either of those passages that says anything like "women may not be elders or pastors."
Neither 1 Timothy 2:11 nor 2:12 has "women", both have the singular "woman". There is plenty of evidence to support the idea that Paul was writing about one specific female rather than women in general.
You have ignored the information provided in previous threads regarding the absence of male pronouns in the Greek of 1 Timothy 3. Use your brain and do your homework instead of calling others liars.
Neither 1 Timothy 2:11 nor 2:12 has "women", both have the singular "woman". There is plenty of evidence to support the idea that Paul was writing about one specific female rather than women in general.
You have ignored the information provided in previous threads regarding the absence of male pronouns in the Greek of 1 Timothy 3. Use your brain and do your homework instead of calling others liars.
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So you choose to dodge the meaning of Scriptures by looking for "explicit" statements????
Since women are commanded to be silent in the churches EXPLICITLY that in itself REFUTES all the nonsense you wish to promote.
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. (1 Cor 14:34)
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. (1 Tim 2:11)
Since women are commanded to be silent in the churches EXPLICITLY that in itself REFUTES all the nonsense you wish to promote.
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. (1 Cor 14:34)
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. (1 Tim 2:11)
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Its talking about the law of moses..or marriage laws.
Is it lawful for a wife to speak before her husband does. Well you need to search scriptures to see if this is so. Note it is Paul saying its not permitted, but there will be exceptions to this rule. Because that same Paul will give permission at other times and its shown he does. Its just about order really.
When Paul was saying let YOUR women be silent in churches, he was speaking to the husbands. Actually he was inferring to the husbands to teach and lead their wives and perhap even shoosh them for being noisy, and to listen!
Why the admonishing was needed. Well the husbands it seems werent stepping up in teaching their wives how to behave in church.
Is it lawful for a wife to speak before her husband does. Well you need to search scriptures to see if this is so. Note it is Paul saying its not permitted, but there will be exceptions to this rule. Because that same Paul will give permission at other times and its shown he does. Its just about order really.
When Paul was saying let YOUR women be silent in churches, he was speaking to the husbands. Actually he was inferring to the husbands to teach and lead their wives and perhap even shoosh them for being noisy, and to listen!
Why the admonishing was needed. Well the husbands it seems werent stepping up in teaching their wives how to behave in church.
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I suggest people read the following defining qualifications for being elders and deacons. In some translations gender of a deacon is neutral. Also in the early church there were deaconesses.
1 Timothy 3 New International Version (NIV)
Qualifications for Overseers and Deacons
1 Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.
8 In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.
11 In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.
12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13 Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 3 New International Version (NIV)
Qualifications for Overseers and Deacons
1 Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.
8 In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.
11 In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.
12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13 Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.
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Since it is Paul who says that we are no longer under the Law, it should be obvious that he is NOT referring to the Old Covenant laws, but simply to the Torah, and more particularly to the book of Genesis (before the Law was given).
And even if he were referring to the Law of Moses, Christians are still subject to the Ten Commandments (as written in the Law of Christ) plus four of the laws of Moses. But Paul -- writing by divine inspiration to Christians says this: Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak. That is enough to refute the nonsense that woman may be elders.
And even if he were referring to the Law of Moses, Christians are still subject to the Ten Commandments (as written in the Law of Christ) plus four of the laws of Moses. But Paul -- writing by divine inspiration to Christians says this: Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak. That is enough to refute the nonsense that woman may be elders.
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No I am simply pointing out that you are a DODGER.
Scripture does not have to always give explicit statements couched in modern terminology as you expect. We have shallow Christians today always claiming that "The Bible does not say this" and "the Bible does not say that" when all they are looking for is an excuse to avoid plain Bible teaching.
The very fact that Paul excluded mentioning women when giving the qualifications of elder/bishops should have been sufficient. But obviously it is never sufficient for dodgers.
Scripture does not have to always give explicit statements couched in modern terminology as you expect. We have shallow Christians today always claiming that "The Bible does not say this" and "the Bible does not say that" when all they are looking for is an excuse to avoid plain Bible teaching.
The very fact that Paul excluded mentioning women when giving the qualifications of elder/bishops should have been sufficient. But obviously it is never sufficient for dodgers.
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