why cessationism is wrong: good article

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
P

PeacefulWarrior

Guest
Nooooooooooo this is accusing others of doing something that isn't true.

The lies and hostility appear to be coming from you TheGeneral, and PeacefulWarrior, you have been stirring things up somewhat royally! Clearly there has been an agenda going on from the beginning and I definitely sensed something fishy afoot a little while back. Had fun?

I must say PW it is somewhat narcissistic to throw a tantrum and threaten to leave because people haven't replied to some of your posts: we aren't obliged to do so, you know, it is up to us to decide...not for you to control. I know you are going to say that it isn't loving to ignore people, but neither is it loving to allow them to labour under heretical doctrines and even defend their hatefulness towards us like you did! You think that is Godly? I don't.

Best advice I can think of is, both of you, when someone admonishes you in the Lord, take it on the chin and listen. There are quite a few here who are mature enough to do that and who are ready to help you, so don't fight against them, be humble, and once admonished, take your issues to the prayer closet.

If you can't do that I can tell you, from personal experience, you will face the same issues over and over again until you learn something.

Uh oh...I get it....that is why you were called WOUNDED warrior! Now I see the picture.

Bye for now!
I am preparing a post, which will outline this entire scuffle.

It is very clear, that theGeneral's accusations are correct.

Your admonishments are unwarranted and you ignore those admonishments which were directed at you by other members.

Correct: You aren't obliged to answer -- However, refusing to discuss in a "BIBLE DISCUSSION" forum is ridiculous. Furthemore, you foster a hostile environment by voicing your opinions and then placing people on ignore -- you call people out, ignore their clarifications and then ignore them, leaving no way to resolve. This is hostile behavior and a hostile environment.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
You seem to know very little about the missions field. People operate in the gifting of an apostle and prophet all of the time in areas where the gospel is just being heard for the first time. The role of the Apostle is to plant churches and raise up pastors & teachers. The role of the prophet and evangelist often times works in unison with one another to bring correction and accountability. Keep in mind I am refering to operating in the gift of apostle & prophet. Not recocognizing them as an office or title.

I'm very suprised how easy it is for people to dismiss things that they know practically nothing about. :(
If you would stay on track and not go off on your own tangent your contributions would be more useful.

Someone who goes about claiming to be an apostle or a prophet is making a false claim. There are a lot of folks who love the adoration of men above being faithful to God.

Hold your accusations about my knowledge of missions for another thread. It is easy to dismiss others when you do not pay attention to what they are saying.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
T

theGeneral

Guest
Nooooooooooo this is accusing others of doing something that isn't true.

The lies and hostility appear to be coming from you TheGeneral, and PeacefulWarrior, you have been stirring things up somewhat royally! Clearly there has been an agenda going on from the beginning and I definitely sensed something fishy afoot a little while back. Had fun?

I must say PW it is somewhat narcissistic to throw a tantrum and threaten to leave because people haven't replied to some of your posts: we aren't obliged to do so, you know, it is up to us to decide...not for you to control. I know you are going to say that it isn't loving to ignore people, but neither is it loving to allow them to labour under heretical doctrines and even defend their hatefulness towards us like you did! You think that is Godly? I don't.

Best advice I can think of is, both of you, when someone admonishes you in the Lord, take it on the chin and listen. There are quite a few here who are mature enough to do that and who are ready to help you, so don't fight against them, be humble, and once admonished, take your issues to the prayer closet.

If you can't do that I can tell you, from personal experience, you will face the same issues over and over again until you learn something.

Uh oh...I get it....that is why you were called WOUNDED warrior! Now I see the picture.

Bye for now!
I am not lying, nor am I being hostile. I admit my response to ember was emotionally driven, I apologize if I went too far in my post on how I felt she was treating people in her posts, I reacted emotionally and this is why. I posted on this thread with what I had learned from this thread and the other called "to comfort those who speak in tounges". As I said in my first post here:
When I first arrived at Christian Chat, the subject of speaking in tongues was appealing to me, because it was something I didn't fully know what I believed in yet--mainly because I have never been exposed to anyone speaking in tongues. I started researching the bible on this topic for several days. I read the scriptures, prayed about it, as well as followed this thread and read the opinions of others on this Christian chat
I then went to give my conclusion from what I have read about prayed about and seen, thus far. Convellaria, you gave me a very respectable response, I as well responded with this:
First of all, let me say, Thank you for the respectful response, that was the whole point I was trying to make by using love, and I appreciate you respecting me by responding to me in a respectful way.
I then gave my opinion of what I gathered from 1 Cor. chapter 13, and reitterated my questions from my original post, that I didn't feel were answered fully yet. PeacefulWarrior then said that previous posts had been ignored, and felt that communication with some was going one way only-their way. I then posted this to encourage him to continue to love:
I have noticed that too, unfortunately, but don't be discouraged! People like us can just continue to show love anyways!
Romans 12:21 "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."
I know your intentions are good, God knows your intentions, and what is in your heart. Just keep being you! You inspire me in so many good ways :)
Then ember responded to me with this:
Love is not the answer to what has transpired with peaceful warrior's posts....he has been disruptive, accusatory and actually very passive aggressive in his posts.

No offence, but I see you have 5 posts, yet you write you are inspired by him.

Please, let's not hide behind so called love. Let's take the whole of scripture's counsel and not mistake alligator tears for hurt feelings.

Immaturity and swinging at others is not love. Harrassing other believers and then accusing them of being the reason you leave is not love. That is passive aggression and immaturity.
and this:
why would you quote Romans 12:21 when referring to other believers?

are you convinced we are evil in some way and your 'good' must somehow overcome us?

I'm shaking my head here, because this is just nonsense IMO
Never was my original posts on the subject referred to by ember she simply saw me try to comfort peacefulwarrior and then attacked me saying i was hiding behind so called love, and took my post meant to comfort peaceful and twisted it into something that was not intended for it to mean.....simply intended to comfort--peaceful knew what I meant and tried to clarify to ember, yet she simply just said we were harrassing her and put us on ignore. She picked at what I said about being inspired by him based on My number of posts, I reacted emotionally when I posted the post about ember being hateful, I am sorry if it came across as unloving--like I said, I had been stumbled by the way ember initially responded to me. I was trying to speak of what I had gathered and encourage people to use love in their dealings with other people especiallly other christians on this chat, but as soon as I tried to personally encourage peacefulwarrior--I got attacked by ember, then ember again, then ember again, now you are accusing me of being hostile. I am confused as to how you think this, I have been only trying to point out love, and to comfort the ones who seemed to need it, and I got attacked.
Let us please please, please try to practice love (myself included) when we speak to one another and discuss bible topics and such.
I'll finish with this quote from Jesus again:
Mark 12:30-31 30" Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] There is no commandment greater than these.”


 
E

ember

Guest
Never was my original posts on the subject referred to by ember she simply saw me try to comfort peacefulwarrior and then attacked me saying i was hiding behind so called love, and took my post meant to comfort peaceful and twisted it into something that was not intended for it to mean.....simply intended to comfort--peaceful knew what I meant and tried to clarify to ember, yet she simply just said we were harrassing her and put us on ignore. She picked at what I said about being inspired by him based on My number of posts, I reacted emotionally when I posted the post about ember being hateful, I am sorry if it came across as unloving--like I said, I had been stumbled by the way ember initially responded to me. I was trying to speak of what I had gathered and encourage people to use love in their dealings with other people especiallly other christians on this chat, but as soon as I tried to personally encourage peacefulwarrior--I got attacked by ember, then ember again, then ember again, now you are accusing me of being hostile. I am confused as to how you think this, I have been only trying to point out love, and to comfort the ones who seemed to need it, and I got attacked.
Let us please please, please try to practice love (myself included) when we speak to one another and discuss bible topics and such.
I'll finish with this quote from Jesus again:
Mark 12:30-31 30" Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] There is no commandment greater than these.”
what do you call love exactly?

attacking another poster with whom your friend does not agree regarding something in the Bible?

and while you do this, you affirm your innocence and continue to declare innocence but instead of stopping your judgement you continue...hours later...to say how innocent you are and how nasty and unloving I am

why are you still at it hours later? why do you continue? I am not going to defend my posts which were written to refute the incorrect teaching on tongues or any other gift

what is actually going on here, is a difference of what people believe and rather than discuss the op, an attempt to get other believers banned has been launched by your friend and for all intents and purposes...since you just will not quit...yourself as well

how many people join this forum with the explicit purpose of joining up with another member to argue in public with other members?

love is not words General...love is sacrifice and consideration and forgiveness...not constant subtle attacks that are couched in sweet words but have another purpose at heart

what do you know about never?

I never attacked your friend...he says that I did and now you repeat that mantra. I refuted his position and the way he claimed he was attacked...it was insincere because that never happened

you have an audience here, but how about your heart? eh? I don't have to hide behind I Corinthians or post about love to defend myself. I am not a hypocrite...I write and say what I mean and if I really have discord with another I would pm that person and not try to belittle their character in front of anyone who will listen

what you and your friend are doing is mean...far meaner than what you say I or anyone else has done

you got attacked...oh my.....yet you post against me over and over along with your friend...and why? because I disagreed with his position and I asked him to please stop. I have asked you to stop

the Bible says to stay away from those who gossip and cause division...IMO, you are working very hard at doing that right now
 
Last edited:
E

ember

Guest
Here is love:

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

so you know, I am accused of not loving...but I choose carefully what I love

I love the truth and I love peace and God is the giver of both

I do not love deceit and I do not love going out of my way to hurt others

I have asked both General in a private email to please stop and yet hours later she is still at it

I have asked peaceful warrior to stop..yet he continues as well and would now like me banned

Seems to me if you ask people to please stop and they continue hours after the fact, they may not actually care if they hurt someone or not

I have been hurt by how peaceful warrior has posted...in another thread and in fact I left the thread but came back a few days later and responded to him...I said that I did not accept his words to me and would continue to post

Do I write over and over about how hurt I am and how these people should be banned? No...I try and deal with it person to person. I get grief for not responding to peacefulwarrior...he demands I respond...so finally I do...truthfully..no name calling but in truth in how he has overstepped civility by his constant attempts at personal confrontation rather then discussing the op

I have seen far worse arguing, insults and insinuations in these forums than ANYTHING I have written...anything

I ask again that these two please stop their personal posts and declarations of innocence...no one is that innocent and after I have repeatedly asked you nicely to stop you continue knowing that you are digging and doing so on purpose?

I'm asking again that you stop.
 
T

theGeneral

Guest
I apologized for the emotional response I had earlier. Like I said before I am new here, I need to know not to respond out of emotion and wait for awhile, pray about it, and then try again (hence the several hours later) and that is what I did. I responded to convellaria because she responded to me. That is all.
Since I presented the idea of Love I noticed the one emotional response that I did have was not very loving......I went too far with it. So I prayed about it, pondered my actions and responded respectfully to convalleria's reply to me.
I did feel attacked so I mentioned it in my response to Convellaria, there is nothing unloving in saying one feels that they have been attacked.
As I feel I have nothing else to gain from this thread, and my original two questions that were on topic were never addressed, I am done with this thread.
 
P

PeacefulWarrior

Guest
If these folks apologize or become banned, I'll stay.
Otherwise, I'm outta here!
Outline of my interactions with Ember and Convallaria:
My first response to Ember (which was only asking for clarification) Here.
1st example of Ember focusing on what she perceived as offensive, while ignoring the heart of what was said by another member, Here.
This continued for a few posts, as the user (whom she was accusing) clarified his words. Meanwhile, she ignored my inquiry and lashed out at me, Here.
At this point, Ember does not add to the conversation while many others do.
She eventually re-enters with this, Here. (Basically stating that she thinks her shortness, her accusations, and her offensive remarks towards Vigilant_Warrior are warranted, because she has read enough of his posts to "knows enough about VW's thoughts" and thus, feels justified.
She continues this emotional rollercoaster of comments -- basically slandering VW, Here.
She gave a brief attempt at actually being open to discussion, Here. VW responds, Here. Ember responds, Here (briefly touches on her point and then immediately moves on the the emotional mumbo-jumbo. VW points out her error, Here.
Meanwhile, my initial inquiry to her remains unanswered -- my impression of her at this point, is that she is not interested in opening up to actual biblical discussion, but has a vendetta for the "tough love" guys' choice of words.

Evidence that my motives are pure: Here. (Not tooting my own horn, but I was able to clarify someone else's words -- good came of this.)

She continues to badger VW, Here. (Still ignoring my inquiry.)
Her vendetta continues, Here.
Not sure what to call this besides "continuing the drama", Here.

At this point in the conversation, I am still defending Convallaria from what myself (and others) perceived as negative and offensive attitudes, Here. It was only after some time, careful consideration, and re-reading of posts that I finally realized that VW, Roger, and others DID CLARIFY their statements (or were never directly offensive toward any single member). Once I realized this, I apologized to those individuals and began to attempt to show Convallaria and Ember what I had learned. At this point, Convallaria began to ignore most of my following posts while Ember resorted to publicly attacking my character (as well as others).

Ember takes this cue to re-enter the conversation and makes it quite clear that she is actively judging and classifying people, Here.
But she fails to heed her own advice and observations minutes later, Here.
She continues her vendetta, Here. (Would have been a really good point to actually debate Rogers words, instead she publicly dismisses them.)
More misunderstandings and destructive rants based on those misunderstandings, Here.
Once again, 100-something posts later, Ember is still fixed on what she perceived as offensive in VW's post -- never once did I see her attempt to address his valid points, Here.
She does the same with Roger, Here.
Continuation of previous misunderstanding (thread has to be completely derailed by now -- it's sad, too, because several people attempted genuine discussion), Here and Here.
Her vendetta with Roger continues, Here.

Each time she posts to this thread, I'm reminded of how she ignored my inquiry and refuses to discuss with anyone -- the only thing that is obviously in her interest, is accusing people of accusing people. Here. I called her out for it, Here. Meanwhile she does it to someone else, Here. She clarifies, Here. Says she's ending her vendetta with Roger, Here.
Her friend, Convallaria, displays her understanding of Roger's words, Here. But I think she fails to fully understand. He is explaining his motivation for participation, she is focusing on his choice of words and making character accusations.

Roger sums the entirety (almost) of this thread, Here.

Not sure what Ember means by this post, but it is evident that she is weary and feels she is fighting something (probably that vendetta), Here.

I show that I am guilty of that which I am now attempting to bring to Convallaria and Ember's attention, Here. It's easy to misunderstand people or take their words out of context, it's not always easy to resolve this when it occurs. With Convallaria and Ember, it's next-to-impossible for a few reasons: They ignore early posts, but respond to latter posts -- often times much of this nonsense could have been avoided, if they would have just read the previous posts.

Convallaria calls others in the thread "heretics" and basically includes me in that group, Here. Also, her assessment of me is inaccurate; she sees me as agreeing with those whom she is accusing of attacking her -- I was never necessarily agreeing with them, I simply understood what they said and meant. Furthermore, I tried to assist at eliminating misunderstandings in this thread, however, in time it became apparent that neither of these two are interested in gaining an understanding of another person's view(s) -- they're solely interested in eliminating attacks upon their view(s). (Might I add: If you don't want your opinion to be challenged, why post a thread about "tongue speaking" in a 'Bible Discussion' forum?)

Some time went by, I was unable to return to thread participation as quickly as I would have liked. A new person entered the thread, "RickyZ", who shared a personal story. Ricky displayed, to the users of the thread, that he had mostly read what others had posted -- he replied to several comments, before sharing his story. I'll admit, I took a chance (at creating misunderstandings) with my post, Here. (Which is to Ricky, but I place it here in this timeline because this is the point where Ember says she is done with the thread, but later returns, Here. Also, at this point, I am very frustrated with Convallaria because she continues to respond to new posts while leaving the previous situation unresolved.)

Theme of this story, Here.

Another ignored point to Convallaria, Here. (Note: At this point, we are at Post #300 and the unresolved issue between Vigilant_Warrior, Convallaria, Ember, and myself [and others?] is concerning Post #11)

Convallaria gives "advice" to me, Here.
I tried to show her how her "advice" was received, Here. (It seems to me, that Convallaria is advising me to ignore wise counsel, ignore my elders, ignore biblical commentary, ignore dictionaries -- and only rely on myself, my God, my Bible. I question this -- I question ignoring all of the tools God has given me [and others].)

Convallaria has the audacity to tell Gr8grace that he is in spiritual danger, Here.

She addresses me again, Here.
Gives definite answers which leave no room for debate, Here. (Even though every source I have found agrees that this is a debatable topic.)
Says others' statements are not true -- but rarely (if ever) shows why [she thinks] they're not true, Here.

***She continues to challenge my authenticity as a Christian, Here. (She's attempting to teach me that there is a distinct difference between being "saved" and being "born again", to the point that elludes that my salvation is in question -- this goes against the teachings I learned as a child and continue to learn as an adult. Frankly, it's borderline heresy.) I responded, Here. Her response, Here (It's nice that she attempted to be positive, however, in light of the previous, this was received as continuing to ignore the heart of the matter!)

By now, it is obvious that Convallaria also has a vendetta with Roger, Here.
Another member calls her out for it, Here.
She dodges, and focuses on [corrupting] me, Here.
Another who has shared a similar experience as me, Here.
Yet another, Here.

Moderator stepped in and reminded/warned her of plagiarism, Here.

I knew I had a busy weekend planned, but Convallaria weighed heavy on my heart. I did not want her to continue to falsely assume that I was now "siding" with those who she accused of attacking her -- but I did [do?] hope that she would, one day, understand. Here.
---begin weekend---
I returned to find that Ricky had posted some more in the thread, and here is Convallaria's affirmation and reply to Ricky (which reveals that she "draws a line" and decides who is on her side and who is not -- furthermore, it reveals that she is not open, but set in her understanding....again, I wonder: Why does someone post in a "BIBLE DISCUSSION" forum, if they are not OPEN TO DISCUSSION?)

Roger shares the same frustration as myself (and others), Here (with regards to placing value on emotion while dismissing biblical interpretation).

Ember enters again, Here. She admits that she ignores Roger's words. She admits she has a vendetta with Vigilant_Warrior and calls him arrogant. She says she went back and read all the threads (but still missed my initial question to her??). She goes on to make a reference to my response to Ricky's story (simultaneously admitting that she did not actually read the conversation between Ricky and I). And finishes with a warning to me.

Convallaria responds with an affirmation to Ember, Here.
More confessions, Here.

Vigilant_Warrior's conclusion, Here.
Ember's response to VW's conclusion, Here notice she completely ignores anything of substance and only focuses on assumptions (border-line gossip, no?).
Similarly to Roger, Phil112 uses harsh words which, for the first time ever, I see Ember respond in kindness, Here.
Ember continues her vendetta with Roger, Here.

--Not complete; but this seems like a good time to post.
 
P

PeacefulWarrior

Guest
If anyone actually follows all of that -- I'll be surprised, but that person deserves a medal. :)
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
The miraculous gifts of the Spirit are gifts that come from God. As such, they are gifts that will only be given if they are, in God's judgement, going to give Him more glory than not giving them. God, after all, does all things for His own glory.
Agreed.

Not an argument -- just curosity. I honestly can't answer this question apart from what I was taught, and I wasn't always taught well:
Do you think the miracle gifts are/were an as-needed thing, or are/were they handed over as a life time thing, like Solomon was given a lifetime of wisdom? Like was maybe someone gifted with healing, and another one was gifted with polyglotism? (The ability to speak more than two languages, but in God's way of doing it, he tended to have people speak in languages without understanding a word they said. lol)

I was taught it's like teaching and wisdom gifts -- a life long gift. But the times I've known miracles happened, the person doing the praying wasn't being used to heal whoever God gave him to heal. Instead, it was a believer in the right place at the right time, and then not a lot of repeating of it. So I'm not sure I was taught right or not, and it's kind of muddled in the Bible, so hard to see. Only reason I'm asking, so honestly, not starting an argument here. Just curious.


Now, if this is right and it is also true that the miraculous gifts were used to authenticate leaders at periods of radical change in the history of redemption, then here's the question we should be asking:
​I think you're ahead of me here. You haven't convinced me of either assertions. Lack of evidence isn't proof something didn't happen, it's merely lack of evidence. We have no evidence if the gifts were only used my the leaders. I mean we have no proof from the Bible that raspberries exist either, because it's not in there, but that doesn't mean raspberries don't exist. It merely means the Bible doesn't talk about them. In like kind, we don't know if just the leaders had the gifts.

And you're going to have to go back a long way and really prove to me how good you are in history to convince me this was only happening in radical change. Seriously, a lot of proof, since I already told you my proof it's still happening. Just because you threw that concept out on me, doesn't mean I believe it or agree with it. No disrespect, but seriously. You can't go be assuming on me when I've already said I disagreed. :D

That said, you know I'm going to disagree with what you said next. lol


Q. Now that the canon is complete and we are in the final major period of the history of redemption (besides, possibly, the millennium), which of the following gives God more glory: (a) people converting because they have seen a sign and believe God is speaking in the Bible because His people are miracle workers, or (b) people converting because they hear God speaking in the Scripture and receive its teachings by faith?

I think option (b) harmonizes with Scripture better than option (a). God does not, in general, seek to satisfy a generation that seeks signs or requires signs and miracles to believe. Even when Christ was walking the earth and performing miracles around every corner, there were people who loved signs and miracles too much for His taste. And he called a generation that seeks signs "wicked". And so on. Meanwhile, the simplicity of faith that simply hears the voice of God in Scripture and humbly submits to it -- without all the fireworks -- is something where God is going to get all the glory. (Too often, when there are human miracle-workers involved, people give the individual too much credit and personality cults form, etc.)

Either way, if it is the case that God receives more glory when people believe without signs and wonders when we're in a stable period of the history of redemption, then that's why the current period would be without them.
Sorry. You missed the third choice -- (c)! My choice. God dinks people into his light. (Dink -- sound effect of God turning on a light switch in us. I make up my own words if I don't know a good enough word to use. lol) He doesn't have a dimmer switch and slowly brings out more and more of his light while we get accustomed to it. He dinks the switch and suddenly we're flooded with his saving light. We can no longer hide in the dark. (Referencing John 3:16-21.) We no longer want to either. That is God wrought and sudden. Even though we didn't know each other back then, both hubby and I went to bed one night not believing and woke up the next morning in full belief. We were dinked! We were saved by his power, not our thoughts/free will/choice, etc.

We were also healthy at the time, so didn't need to be healed, too. Sign gifts as as-needed. Kind of dumb to give someone healthy hands if they already have healthy hands, but good to give someone with a withered hand a good hand. That's when the sign gifts are needed. They aren't for show-and-tell. God dinks! That's enough show-and-tell. It's a shocker. t's wonderful. Doubt left the building! So, no, not a choice between (a) or (b), but (c). Sorry, so the rest of what you said really didn't get proven to me. Not saying you can't try again. Not saying I'm not open. Just saying it didn't work for me.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
Cases like this one in Africa are interesting - especially since they are consistent with the Biblical use of tongues as real languages and used for communication. If the miracles are legit and the theology taught is orthodox and Biblical, then I would probably lean towards this explanation: these miracles can accompany the expansion of Christianity to regions where it hasn't been before because, in a sense, Pentecost is only just happening in those regions now. But once the Gospel has made inroads and Scripture has been established as the word of God, we should expect these signs and wonders to become less and less common until people are completely satisfied by the Word of God alone. Something like that is how I would probably fit it into my systematic theology. But I would be open to hearing arguments for other options.
I do think it's happening in Africa and not happening in the "civilized world" for my own take on it. (Not sure I mentioned this to you before, so I'll give you my personal take.) I think Africa gave in to demons centuries ago, if not longer than that. Many still are. (Not all, or gee whiz, nothing like that would be happening. Africa wouldn't be sending missionaries to the English-speaking world because they think we need God. But many are evil there and have been since back in the days when they routinely conquered other tribes by selling the people into slavery. Probably further back than that.) Someone on this site recently said Satan has a foothold on Africa. I disagree. I think he owns it, and God is gaining his own foothold now. May he take over the entire continent... and then do the same for all other continents.

But that's all it is -- my personal opinion. We have no idea what's really going on there or anywhere else. But I know I've seen a bonafide miracle once. And, my hubby prayed as God asked (took him a while to get what God was telling him to do -- lay hands on the guy, not go off into another room - but he got it eventually) and God completely removed pain from a guy in the hospital with gout, while God didn't heal hubby of his broken back. This is America where these miracles happen. I'm not buying God doesn't do the big firework display kind of signs, simply because we're in the wrong time in history. He heals because he wants some people healed. He doesn't heal because he doesn't want others healed. This isn't "God doesn't need proof so doesn't" thingy. He does still, and has always done what glorifies himself, and is good for his people. (A little Rom. 8:28 in that, but I spread it out to beyond God's peeps.)

I'm really not big on tongues. I have some negative opinions on them that would start a riot on this thread, but that doesn't mean I don't think gifts have ended, nor do I see any biblical evidence they've ended. And I don't think it needs to be with just the right orthodoxy or Biblical understanding. It just needs God for his glory and by his will.

If we waited around until we understood the Bible perfectly, the only witness to God would be happening after Judgement Day. None of us have it all and perfectly right. It IS God, not us.
 
P

PeacefulWarrior

Guest
No longer following thread, PM me if you need anything.

By the way, this thread's title "why cessationism is wrong" -- How is this an appropriate thread? Is it not counterproductive to fellowship?
 
Jul 1, 2015
584
9
0
Outline of my interactions with Ember and Convallaria:
My first response to Ember (which was only asking for clarification) Here.
1st example of Ember focusing on what she perceived as offensive, while ignoring the heart of what was said by another member, Here.
This continued for a few posts, as the user (whom she was accusing) clarified his words. Meanwhile, she ignored my inquiry and lashed out at me, Here.
At this point, Ember does not add to the conversation while many others do.
She eventually re-enters with this, Here. (Basically stating that she thinks her shortness, her accusations, and her offensive remarks towards Vigilant_Warrior are warranted, because she has read enough of his posts to "knows enough about VW's thoughts" and thus, feels justified.
She continues this emotional rollercoaster of comments -- basically slandering VW, Here.
She gave a brief attempt at actually being open to discussion, Here. VW responds, Here. Ember responds, Here (briefly touches on her point and then immediately moves on the the emotional mumbo-jumbo. VW points out her error, Here.
Meanwhile, my initial inquiry to her remains unanswered -- my impression of her at this point, is that she is not interested in opening up to actual biblical discussion, but has a vendetta for the "tough love" guys' choice of words.

Evidence that my motives are pure: Here. (Not tooting my own horn, but I was able to clarify someone else's words -- good came of this.)

She continues to badger VW, Here. (Still ignoring my inquiry.)
Her vendetta continues, Here.
Not sure what to call this besides "continuing the drama", Here.

At this point in the conversation, I am still defending Convallaria from what myself (and others) perceived as negative and offensive attitudes, Here. It was only after some time, careful consideration, and re-reading of posts that I finally realized that VW, Roger, and others DID CLARIFY their statements (or were never directly offensive toward any single member). Once I realized this, I apologized to those individuals and began to attempt to show Convallaria and Ember what I had learned. At this point, Convallaria began to ignore most of my following posts while Ember resorted to publicly attacking my character (as well as others).

Ember takes this cue to re-enter the conversation and makes it quite clear that she is actively judging and classifying people, Here.
But she fails to heed her own advice and observations minutes later, Here.
She continues her vendetta, Here. (Would have been a really good point to actually debate Rogers words, instead she publicly dismisses them.)
More misunderstandings and destructive rants based on those misunderstandings, Here.
Once again, 100-something posts later, Ember is still fixed on what she perceived as offensive in VW's post -- never once did I see her attempt to address his valid points, Here.
She does the same with Roger, Here.
Continuation of previous misunderstanding (thread has to be completely derailed by now -- it's sad, too, because several people attempted genuine discussion), Here and Here.
Her vendetta with Roger continues, Here.

Each time she posts to this thread, I'm reminded of how she ignored my inquiry and refuses to discuss with anyone -- the only thing that is obviously in her interest, is accusing people of accusing people. Here. I called her out for it, Here. Meanwhile she does it to someone else, Here. She clarifies, Here. Says she's ending her vendetta with Roger, Here.
Her friend, Convallaria, displays her understanding of Roger's words, Here. But I think she fails to fully understand. He is explaining his motivation for participation, she is focusing on his choice of words and making character accusations.

Roger sums the entirety (almost) of this thread, Here.

Not sure what Ember means by this post, but it is evident that she is weary and feels she is fighting something (probably that vendetta), Here.

I show that I am guilty of that which I am now attempting to bring to Convallaria and Ember's attention, Here. It's easy to misunderstand people or take their words out of context, it's not always easy to resolve this when it occurs. With Convallaria and Ember, it's next-to-impossible for a few reasons: They ignore early posts, but respond to latter posts -- often times much of this nonsense could have been avoided, if they would have just read the previous posts.

Convallaria calls others in the thread "heretics" and basically includes me in that group, Here. Also, her assessment of me is inaccurate; she sees me as agreeing with those whom she is accusing of attacking her -- I was never necessarily agreeing with them, I simply understood what they said and meant. Furthermore, I tried to assist at eliminating misunderstandings in this thread, however, in time it became apparent that neither of these two are interested in gaining an understanding of another person's view(s) -- they're solely interested in eliminating attacks upon their view(s). (Might I add: If you don't want your opinion to be challenged, why post a thread about "tongue speaking" in a 'Bible Discussion' forum?)

Some time went by, I was unable to return to thread participation as quickly as I would have liked. A new person entered the thread, "RickyZ", who shared a personal story. Ricky displayed, to the users of the thread, that he had mostly read what others had posted -- he replied to several comments, before sharing his story. I'll admit, I took a chance (at creating misunderstandings) with my post, Here. (Which is to Ricky, but I place it here in this timeline because this is the point where Ember says she is done with the thread, but later returns, Here. Also, at this point, I am very frustrated with Convallaria because she continues to respond to new posts while leaving the previous situation unresolved.)

Theme of this story, Here.

Another ignored point to Convallaria, Here. (Note: At this point, we are at Post #300 and the unresolved issue between Vigilant_Warrior, Convallaria, Ember, and myself [and others?] is concerning Post #11)

Convallaria gives "advice" to me, Here.
I tried to show her how her "advice" was received, Here. (It seems to me, that Convallaria is advising me to ignore wise counsel, ignore my elders, ignore biblical commentary, ignore dictionaries -- and only rely on myself, my God, my Bible. I question this -- I question ignoring all of the tools God has given me [and others].)

Convallaria has the audacity to tell Gr8grace that he is in spiritual danger, Here.

She addresses me again, Here.
Gives definite answers which leave no room for debate, Here. (Even though every source I have found agrees that this is a debatable topic.)
Says others' statements are not true -- but rarely (if ever) shows why [she thinks] they're not true, Here.

***She continues to challenge my authenticity as a Christian, Here. (She's attempting to teach me that there is a distinct difference between being "saved" and being "born again", to the point that elludes that my salvation is in question -- this goes against the teachings I learned as a child and continue to learn as an adult. Frankly, it's borderline heresy.) I responded, Here. Her response, Here (It's nice that she attempted to be positive, however, in light of the previous, this was received as continuing to ignore the heart of the matter!)

By now, it is obvious that Convallaria also has a vendetta with Roger, Here.
Another member calls her out for it, Here.
She dodges, and focuses on [corrupting] me, Here.
Another who has shared a similar experience as me, Here.
Yet another, Here.

Moderator stepped in and reminded/warned her of plagiarism, Here.

I knew I had a busy weekend planned, but Convallaria weighed heavy on my heart. I did not want her to continue to falsely assume that I was now "siding" with those who she accused of attacking her -- but I did [do?] hope that she would, one day, understand. Here.
---begin weekend---
I returned to find that Ricky had posted some more in the thread, and here is Convallaria's affirmation and reply to Ricky (which reveals that she "draws a line" and decides who is on her side and who is not -- furthermore, it reveals that she is not open, but set in her understanding....again, I wonder: Why does someone post in a "BIBLE DISCUSSION" forum, if they are not OPEN TO DISCUSSION?)

Roger shares the same frustration as myself (and others), Here (with regards to placing value on emotion while dismissing biblical interpretation).

Ember enters again, Here. She admits that she ignores Roger's words. She admits she has a vendetta with Vigilant_Warrior and calls him arrogant. She says she went back and read all the threads (but still missed my initial question to her??). She goes on to make a reference to my response to Ricky's story (simultaneously admitting that she did not actually read the conversation between Ricky and I). And finishes with a warning to me.

Convallaria responds with an affirmation to Ember, Here.
More confessions, Here.

Vigilant_Warrior's conclusion, Here.
Ember's response to VW's conclusion, Here notice she completely ignores anything of substance and only focuses on assumptions (border-line gossip, no?).
Similarly to Roger, Phil112 uses harsh words which, for the first time ever, I see Ember respond in kindness, Here.
Ember continues her vendetta with Roger, Here.

--Not complete; but this seems like a good time to post.
Not quite the loving, peacemaking, new-to-the-faith Christian you wanted us to think you were, huh?

From the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
Outline of my interactions with Ember and Convallaria:
My first response to Ember (which was only asking for clarification) Here.
1st example of Ember focusing on what she perceived as offensive, while ignoring the heart of what was said by another member, Here.
This continued for a few posts, as the user (whom she was accusing) clarified his words. Meanwhile, she ignored my inquiry and lashed out at me, Here.
At this point, Ember does not add to the conversation while many others do.
She eventually re-enters with this, Here. (Basically stating that she thinks her shortness, her accusations, and her offensive remarks towards Vigilant_Warrior are warranted, because she has read enough of his posts to "knows enough about VW's thoughts" and thus, feels justified.
She continues this emotional rollercoaster of comments -- basically slandering VW, Here.
She gave a brief attempt at actually being open to discussion, Here. VW responds, Here. Ember responds, Here (briefly touches on her point and then immediately moves on the the emotional mumbo-jumbo. VW points out her error, Here.
Meanwhile, my initial inquiry to her remains unanswered -- my impression of her at this point, is that she is not interested in opening up to actual biblical discussion, but has a vendetta for the "tough love" guys' choice of words.

Evidence that my motives are pure: Here. (Not tooting my own horn, but I was able to clarify someone else's words -- good came of this.)

She continues to badger VW, Here. (Still ignoring my inquiry.)
Her vendetta continues, Here.
Not sure what to call this besides "continuing the drama", Here.

At this point in the conversation, I am still defending Convallaria from what myself (and others) perceived as negative and offensive attitudes, Here. It was only after some time, careful consideration, and re-reading of posts that I finally realized that VW, Roger, and others DID CLARIFY their statements (or were never directly offensive toward any single member). Once I realized this, I apologized to those individuals and began to attempt to show Convallaria and Ember what I had learned. At this point, Convallaria began to ignore most of my following posts while Ember resorted to publicly attacking my character (as well as others).

Ember takes this cue to re-enter the conversation and makes it quite clear that she is actively judging and classifying people, Here.
But she fails to heed her own advice and observations minutes later, Here.
She continues her vendetta, Here. (Would have been a really good point to actually debate Rogers words, instead she publicly dismisses them.)
More misunderstandings and destructive rants based on those misunderstandings, Here.
Once again, 100-something posts later, Ember is still fixed on what she perceived as offensive in VW's post -- never once did I see her attempt to address his valid points, Here.
She does the same with Roger, Here.
Continuation of previous misunderstanding (thread has to be completely derailed by now -- it's sad, too, because several people attempted genuine discussion), Here and Here.
Her vendetta with Roger continues, Here.

Each time she posts to this thread, I'm reminded of how she ignored my inquiry and refuses to discuss with anyone -- the only thing that is obviously in her interest, is accusing people of accusing people. Here. I called her out for it, Here. Meanwhile she does it to someone else, Here. She clarifies, Here. Says she's ending her vendetta with Roger, Here.
Her friend, Convallaria, displays her understanding of Roger's words, Here. But I think she fails to fully understand. He is explaining his motivation for participation, she is focusing on his choice of words and making character accusations.

Roger sums the entirety (almost) of this thread, Here.

Not sure what Ember means by this post, but it is evident that she is weary and feels she is fighting something (probably that vendetta), Here.

I show that I am guilty of that which I am now attempting to bring to Convallaria and Ember's attention, Here. It's easy to misunderstand people or take their words out of context, it's not always easy to resolve this when it occurs. With Convallaria and Ember, it's next-to-impossible for a few reasons: They ignore early posts, but respond to latter posts -- often times much of this nonsense could have been avoided, if they would have just read the previous posts.

Convallaria calls others in the thread "heretics" and basically includes me in that group, Here. Also, her assessment of me is inaccurate; she sees me as agreeing with those whom she is accusing of attacking her -- I was never necessarily agreeing with them, I simply understood what they said and meant. Furthermore, I tried to assist at eliminating misunderstandings in this thread, however, in time it became apparent that neither of these two are interested in gaining an understanding of another person's view(s) -- they're solely interested in eliminating attacks upon their view(s). (Might I add: If you don't want your opinion to be challenged, why post a thread about "tongue speaking" in a 'Bible Discussion' forum?)

Some time went by, I was unable to return to thread participation as quickly as I would have liked. A new person entered the thread, "RickyZ", who shared a personal story. Ricky displayed, to the users of the thread, that he had mostly read what others had posted -- he replied to several comments, before sharing his story. I'll admit, I took a chance (at creating misunderstandings) with my post, Here. (Which is to Ricky, but I place it here in this timeline because this is the point where Ember says she is done with the thread, but later returns, Here. Also, at this point, I am very frustrated with Convallaria because she continues to respond to new posts while leaving the previous situation unresolved.)

Theme of this story, Here.

Another ignored point to Convallaria, Here. (Note: At this point, we are at Post #300 and the unresolved issue between Vigilant_Warrior, Convallaria, Ember, and myself [and others?] is concerning Post #11)

Convallaria gives "advice" to me, Here.
I tried to show her how her "advice" was received, Here. (It seems to me, that Convallaria is advising me to ignore wise counsel, ignore my elders, ignore biblical commentary, ignore dictionaries -- and only rely on myself, my God, my Bible. I question this -- I question ignoring all of the tools God has given me [and others].)

Convallaria has the audacity to tell Gr8grace that he is in spiritual danger, Here.

She addresses me again, Here.
Gives definite answers which leave no room for debate, Here. (Even though every source I have found agrees that this is a debatable topic.)
Says others' statements are not true -- but rarely (if ever) shows why [she thinks] they're not true, Here.

***She continues to challenge my authenticity as a Christian, Here. (She's attempting to teach me that there is a distinct difference between being "saved" and being "born again", to the point that elludes that my salvation is in question -- this goes against the teachings I learned as a child and continue to learn as an adult. Frankly, it's borderline heresy.) I responded, Here. Her response, Here (It's nice that she attempted to be positive, however, in light of the previous, this was received as continuing to ignore the heart of the matter!)

By now, it is obvious that Convallaria also has a vendetta with Roger, Here.
Another member calls her out for it, Here.
She dodges, and focuses on [corrupting] me, Here.
Another who has shared a similar experience as me, Here.
Yet another, Here.

Moderator stepped in and reminded/warned her of plagiarism, Here.

I knew I had a busy weekend planned, but Convallaria weighed heavy on my heart. I did not want her to continue to falsely assume that I was now "siding" with those who she accused of attacking her -- but I did [do?] hope that she would, one day, understand. Here.
---begin weekend---
I returned to find that Ricky had posted some more in the thread, and here is Convallaria's affirmation and reply to Ricky (which reveals that she "draws a line" and decides who is on her side and who is not -- furthermore, it reveals that she is not open, but set in her understanding....again, I wonder: Why does someone post in a "BIBLE DISCUSSION" forum, if they are not OPEN TO DISCUSSION?)

Roger shares the same frustration as myself (and others), Here (with regards to placing value on emotion while dismissing biblical interpretation).

Ember enters again, Here. She admits that she ignores Roger's words. She admits she has a vendetta with Vigilant_Warrior and calls him arrogant. She says she went back and read all the threads (but still missed my initial question to her??). She goes on to make a reference to my response to Ricky's story (simultaneously admitting that she did not actually read the conversation between Ricky and I). And finishes with a warning to me.

Convallaria responds with an affirmation to Ember, Here.
More confessions, Here.

Vigilant_Warrior's conclusion, Here.
Ember's response to VW's conclusion, Here notice she completely ignores anything of substance and only focuses on assumptions (border-line gossip, no?).
Similarly to Roger, Phil112 uses harsh words which, for the first time ever, I see Ember respond in kindness, Here.
Ember continues her vendetta with Roger, Here.

--Not complete; but this seems like a good time to post.
Pssst, we defend for God, not for ourselves. If you stop defending yourself, life is so much easier and quicker.

You cannot change someone else. You'll drive yourself nuts trying.

This isn't getting resolved because all sides are in defensive mode.

You're the peacemaker. What does a peacemaker do in this situation?
 
H

hind_let_loose

Guest
So, here's my take on what you're saying, (and I readily admit I may have misunderstood you, so feel free to correct me if I have):
Unless you know the religious background of the person doing the report, (the three types you listed), and the authentication of the report, you don't trust the reports? (And I understand you meant at varying degrees.) In a way, I don't blame you. I'm not that trusting with historic evidence either. Josephus got a lot of stuff wrong. The Council of Nicaea spent quite some time sifting through the different scrolls trying to define what was Bible-worthy and what wasn't. And, let's face it, any day on the news we see reports so off the wall, they're almost worthless. Almost.


Yep, that's basically what I'm saying. I would add that I don't think most miracle claims are impressive in their own right -- non-miraculous explanations are generally available. So that makes it easier to discount the miracle-claims of someone with bad theology. (They're not raising the dead, after all.)

That's the first reason I don't agree with you though. If they're reporting, it's a story. Maybe not the real story, but something happened. Four shootings in Philly two nights ago. I know two people were in serious condition and two weren't. I know the two in serious condition weren't related to each other. I know there were "three incidences." That they gave, so something really happened in three places related to three different locations. If it was a middle-class to upper-class person, if anyone of them happened in a rich neighborhood, Center City, or Olde City (the last two are our business district and tourist area), or if it was unusual (like the time a guy kidnapped a woman and took her south), we'd learn more from a slanted POV with more stories to follow up. But since these people weren't important, it was really about four bullets in people in one night. Still, I know there were these real instances.

In like kind, Josephus got the basic info right. He just drew the wrong conclusions. (Moses lead a group of survivors of the plague out of Egypt. That kind of basics without the full story.) In like kind, the scraps we have from history are significant. Miracles is significant. It made history. The details may be sketchy, but the story is there.
I'm not sure I understand this. Are you saying that because there are so many reports of miracles, there must be something to them? I agree there's something happening that the miracle-claims are trying to explain. The question is just this: does the explanation have to be that real miracles are happening? It is also possible that something non-miraculous is happening.

And, the Nicaea Council? Well, if they got it wrong, we've been wrong for close to 1700 years now. Apparently, it is possible for fallible men to figure out the difference between Infallible God and other fallible men. If we kill off that possibility of sometimes they got it right in history, then we kill off trusting those guys to figure out which guys got it right enough to include it in the Bible. (The same theory I go with to trust my instruction manuals for any electrical or electronic gadgets. lol)
I'm sorry, but I'm a bit confused here. So I'm not following the argument.

As for Azusa Street? Equally as sketchy on the details. Actually plenty of details, but I'm skeptical on what happened and how. Early days of WoF movement, but as much as the beliefs stink, people were healed a lot. So much so, that even if 10% of those people were truly healed it was significant. (Just like Moses coming out of Egypt with plague survivors -- sketchy, but accurate to some degree.) So, no, I don't think most of the people were miraculously healed, and I don't think the gifts were properly applied from a theological view, but God moves through despite Man's intentions. If God wanted to heal someone, he would certainly use theologically unsound people to do it. What's his other choice, since none of us get it fully right? (Well, the obvious other choice is to do it himself, but he doesn't do that.)
Since miracles are supposed to confirm the miracle-worker, I don't believe that God would perform real miracles through theologically unsound people. (I'm not saying they must be perfect on all points -- just that they can't be heretical, for instance.)

And the Jesus Movement? I'm part of that. You're right. It wasn't always theologically sound. It didn't stop God from moving big time. Most of the time it was young people doing the evangelizing and preaching because God saved them and they were passing it on. And they were praying. And miraculous things happened all over the country. Only later did those of us who were truly saved figure out we need good teaching. (Some faster than others. lol)

I believe to tell a good lie, there has to be some truth in it. (The serpent told good lies to Eve -- some truth, but not full truth. Satan told some lies to Jesus -- some truth, but not all truth.) So if a lie isn't a complete and full fabrication, how much more so when people aren't trying to tell a lie? Even if they don't get it all right, there's even more truth to it than a lie. Something has happened in history in the different parts of history we know, where God did miraculous things. And some is still going on.
There's definitely some truth in it, at least in this respect: something weird is/was going on. But, given the theology and the lack of verification of the most compelling types of miracles, I just think there is a non-miraculous explanation of what was going on. The same sort of thing magicians can pull off before an audience, etc.
Bzzzzzz. (The sound of my brain frying. lol) If I keep going after this, I'll be working on fumes, so I take up more tomorrow.
Yeah, I lost my first (and better) response to this post when I closed my browser before I realized I hadn't completed this. But it was good to go over everything again. :)
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
Not quite the loving, peacemaking, new-to-the-faith Christian you wanted us to think you were, huh?

From the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks.
I notice the same thing about you -- and more often then I notice it about Warrior. Ever consider looking in a mirror instead of taunting people so often? There's a reason I rarely respond to you. I know it will end up in an argument eventually -- the moment you find out I don't totally agree with you. I expect more from someone my age.
 
Jul 1, 2015
584
9
0
RT Kendall Ministries

https://rtkendallministries.com/dear-dr-macarthur

Dear Dr. MacArthur,
I have admired you as an able writer and speaker for years. I have not only read your book Strange Fire but listened to your talks as well as the panel discussions at your recent conference. I am as reformed theologically as you are and can say we are on the same page when it comes to many issues you address.
I was not prepared however for some of the things you said. I had to reread some parts to be sure you said what I thought you said. First, if your book purports the danger of offending the Holy Spirit with counterfeit worship, I fear you are in greater danger of offending the Holy Spirit by attributing His work to Satan. Does this not worry you? You are risking an awful lot by counting on cessatonism to be totally true. You have tried to turn the hypothetical teaching of cessationism into a dogma.
Second, surprisingly, you imply that my predecessor Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones would agree with you. A major portion of my own book Holy Fire is devoted to what he believed regarding the gifts, the baptism and the immediate witness of the Holy Spirit. He was no cessationist; he loathed cessationism. Nearly every Pentecostal and charismatic in Britain knew he was their friend. Not only that; he has turned more of them into reformed thinkers than anybody in the twentieth century. He would be horrified that you dismiss as demonic all contemporary testimonies of experiencing the direct work of the Spirit. According to you, my own baptism with the Spirit was demonic even though it led me to reformed theology without reading a single word of John Calvin.
Third, to be consistent, if you have got it right, we should counsel new Christians to disregard many Scriptures – e.g. those that encourage us to believe that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever (Heb.13:8), that he still shows us when we are on the wrong track (Phil.3:15), that the Holy Spirit cannot speak today as he did to Philip (Acts 8:29) or that we should covet earnestly the best gifts (1 Cor.13:31).
I hope you will consider reading my book. It will do you no harm and, just maybe, you might hear God speak to you in a way you never thought possible. I only pray with all my heart that you have not gone too far already. In the second panel discussion at your conference you actually said, “I know I am wrong somewhere”. If so, who would you listen to? Would you not want to know as soon as possible if you have got it wrong on those matters you are so dogmatic about?
If I knew for sure it would be honoring to God – for the sake of sincere Christians who are fence-straddling on cessationism, I would ask that you and I have a civil debate (presidential style) on the issue of cessationism. Could we pray about this?
— R. T. Kendall
 
Jul 1, 2015
584
9
0
I notice the same thing about you -- and more often then I notice it about Warrior. Ever consider looking in a mirror instead of taunting people so often? There's a reason I rarely respond to you. I know it will end up in an argument eventually -- the moment you find out I don't totally agree with you. I expect more from someone my age.
I have never promoted myself as peacemaking or loving or new in the faith. I think if you read my posts properly you would see where my loyalties lie 100%, if you were willing to look. This is not a popularity contest and I am not here to please people and to suck up to anyone. I know why I am here however...do you?

There is a difference between confidence and arrogance; there is a difference between testimony and supposition. Because of my own testimony I have confidence in the Lord and what He is doing in me, and I don't need to run that by anyone first... not even you.

Since you are accusing me of taunting people, why don't you bring some evidence of this? I rarely respond to you because you are pretty rude generally, and making a virtue out of it by your signing off comment.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
Yep, that's basically what I'm saying. I would add that I don't think most miracle claims are impressive in their own right -- non-miraculous explanations are generally available. So that makes it easier to discount the miracle-claims of someone with bad theology. (They're not raising the dead, after all.)



I'm not sure I understand this. Are you saying that because there are so many reports of miracles, there must be something to them? I agree there's something happening that the miracle-claims are trying to explain. The question is just this: does the explanation have to be that real miracles are happening? It is also possible that something non-miraculous is happening.



I'm sorry, but I'm a bit confused here. So I'm not following the argument.



Since miracles are supposed to confirm the miracle-worker, I don't believe that God would perform real miracles through theologically unsound people. (I'm not saying they must be perfect on all points -- just that they can't be heretical, for instance.)



There's definitely some truth in it, at least in this respect: something weird is/was going on. But, given the theology and the lack of verification of the most compelling types of miracles, I just think there is a non-miraculous explanation of what was going on. The same sort of thing magicians can pull off before an audience, etc.
[/SIZE]

Yeah, I lost my first (and better) response to this post when I closed my browser before I realized I hadn't completed this. But it was good to go over everything again. :)
I hate when that happens! (Accidental loss of stuff I already wrote.)


I'm basically saying that most miracles laid down weren't, but some were. Sure Azusa Street started the WoF movement, but they started it when wanting to know God more and seeking to trust him more. It's leaving God's wrod now, but, as explained in my history loaded post, that is usually what happnes when God comes to a group of people. First gen are his kids. Second gen either think they're his kids or become his kids. Third gen, thinks they're his grandkids (God has no grandkids) or become his kids. But all the generations who just think they're God's kids spend a lot of time making God up as they learn what they don't like about him. So, yeah, Azusa Street did become something else, but it started on tract and there were many, many miracles. Out of the many, many, I believe a minority were truly God-made miracles. And no one was laying claim to them being anything other than God-made. They weren't saying, "Look what I did." They were saying, "Look what God did." Same thing with the Jesus Movement. I never heard of some healer, because no one was taking credit for it. Hubby, who lived in another state and wasn't "hubby" to me yet, says the same thing. No one ever stepped up to claim that position. From our experience with God working through us to do a miracle, were just as dumbfounded as the person receiving the miracle. We so know we didn't do that. God did! It's just too much to get all vain about something we didn't do. All we did was expect God to do his thing, and, when it happened, we found out how much we really weren't expecting that. Most of the time it doesn't happen, so who truly expects it to happen -- ever? lol